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Sind Beamte auch "employees"

19 Antworten    
Kommentar
Hallo,

ich schreibe einen juristischen Text, bei dem ich externe Verarbeitung von Daten (customer facing, B2C) von internen abgrenze. Ich würde gerne "employees" verwenden für alle internen Verarbeitungen. ZB: Performance records of employees. Geht das, oder müsste ich stets differenzieren (employees and civil servants)?
VerfasserSally Sulhanen (766041) 02 Aug 17, 09:41
Kommentar
I emphasize that I do not fully understand your question, but I can say that (depending on what you actually mean) you may be making a false dichotomy. In America, "civil servant" is a broad category that includes (just about) everyone who works for a government, i.e., any governmental agency. And--at least as a general class--civil servants are employees of the particular governmental agency.
#1VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 02 Aug 17, 10:22
Kommentar
Sally, are you writing a text in English or in German? And in which country is the body for which the Beamte / employees work based?
#2Verfasseramw (532814) 02 Aug 17, 12:06
Kommentar
Agree with the questions:
* What is the language of the text?
* Is it a translation? if yes, from which language into which other language?
* In which country is the body based for which those "Beamte" are working ?
Additional:
* Are you aware of the distinction between "Beamter" and "Angestellter" in German government bodies?
* What is - in your opinion - the difference between "civil servant" and "government employee"?

#3VerfasserAGB (236120) 02 Aug 17, 13:37
Kommentar
Verstehe ich den OP richtig: Die Unterscheidung ist für die gestellte Aufgabe per se nicht wichtig, es soll aber kein Zweifel daran bestehen - Beamte sind ebenso gemeint wie Angestellte?

Ich würde mich mit staff aus der Affäre ziehen ...
#4Verfassermbshu (874725) 02 Aug 17, 13:42
Kommentar
1. Vielen Dank.
2. Ich schreibe auf Englisch, und richtig: Die Unterscheidung ist nicht so wichtig. Mir geht es um die Frage, ob "employee data" auch die Daten von Leuten einschließt, die für den Staat arbeiten.
Es geht nicht um die verschiedenen Typen von Arbeitsverhältnisse der öffentlichen Hand.
Vielleicht ist es nicht so gut rüber gekommen: Ich grenze "employee data" von "customer data/consumer data" ab und Frage mich, ob "employee data" auch für Mitarbeiter des Staates gilt oder ob man eine dritte Kategorie einfügen muss.
@mbshu: Ich verstehe Dich dahingehend, dass jedenfalls "staff" auch die Mitarbeiter der öffentlichen Hand abdeckt.

#5VerfasserSally Sulhanen (766041) 02 Aug 17, 15:01
Kommentar
Wenn Du die Uebersetzung government employees fuer Beamte hernimmst, dann kannst Du auf jeden Fall employee data referenzieren.
Government employee kann prizipiell beides sein: Beamter oder Angestellter der oeffentlichen Hand.
#6VerfasserAGB (236120) 02 Aug 17, 15:23
Kommentar
You still didn't answer the question about the nationality of the employer, but never mind, I think it's safe to say that, at least in English, employee data is a phrase that works just as well for employees of the/a state as it does for employees of other organisations. The only possible exception I could think of was members of the armed forces.
#7Verfasseramw (532814) 02 Aug 17, 15:27
Kommentar
Support #7.

In some government departments and agencies, reference may be made, for some purposes, to certain officers, administrators, agents, special agents, officials or some other designation that does not necessarily include all employees, but, for general purposes, including almost all data collection and reporting, no one would doubt that they are all employees (with the possible exception of the highest-level head of a department or agency, perhaps).

OT: I was quite surprised when I first learned about the distinction made in Germany between employees and Beamte. [Q: does the English preposition here require that I write Beamten?]
#8VerfasserJurist (US) (804041) 02 Aug 17, 16:48
Kommentar
OT: I was quite surprised when I first learned about the distinction made in Germany between employees and Beamte.

Ich glaube, die ist in der Form auch ziemlich deutsch oder zumindest europäisch.

[Q: does the English preposition here require that I write Beamten?]

Meinem unmaßgeblichen Sprachempfinden nach ja, aber das ist schon eine ziemliche Feinheit.
#9VerfasserJanZ (805098) 02 Aug 17, 17:12
Kommentar
re ## 8,9
MW ist "der Beamte" das einzige genuine Substantiv, das Adjektivendungen bekommt (nur die maskuline Version), analog zu substantivierten Adjektiven und Partizipien:
der Beamte - ein Beamter
der Kranke - ein Kranker
der Reisende - ein Reisender
etc., mit entsprechender Flexion für die anderen Kasus.
Deutsch kann ganz schön kompliziert sein!
#10VerfasserIngeborg (274140) 02 Aug 17, 17:51
Kommentar
The question is akin to whether soldiers and police officers are 'employees'. I think even in English usage we might scratch our heads about that. In Germany (and Austria?) the head-scratching extends to other government servants (though by no means all). Sometimes It would be necessary to make a distinction, but not here. as far as I can see.
#11Verfasserescoville (237761) 02 Aug 17, 19:53
Kommentar
Vielen Dank.
Vielleicht noch als Nachtrag, da es gefragt wurde: Ich schreibe für alle Länder der EU. Es geht um eine Übersicht. Ich werde jetzt "employees" verwenden.
#12VerfasserSally Sulhanen (766041) 04 Aug 17, 09:43
Kommentar
In Germany (and Austria?) the head-scratching extends to other government servants (though by no means all). Sometimes It would be necessary to make a distinction, but not here. as far as I can see.

OT: It's not just those who are obvious government employees who fall into that special category. Even after Deutsche Telekom was split off from the German government, there were still employees there who fell under the category of "Beamten" based on the status in the old days. Their contracts differed from the other employees, they couldn't be fired as Telekom went through its repeated attempts at restructuring, etc. DT and its related firms weren't terribly pleased about the situation, it appears, and it wasn't unknown for those folks to be placed into positions far below their previous positions -- until they either retired (early) or sought out employment elsewhere.
#13Verfasserhbberlin (420040) 04 Aug 17, 10:19
Kommentar
Re #13

Tu es Beamte(r) in aeternum

But when the concept was dreamed up, the privatization of such services as posts, communications and railways wasn't on the cards. There was no constitutionally possible process of Entamtung, so the only solution was grin and bear it, and sit out the natural wastage (which, with pension rights, could take 40 or 50 years).
#14Verfasserescoville (237761) 04 Aug 17, 11:28
Kommentar
But when the concept was dreamed...

Ummm...why the "but" as if contradicting or offering an alternative to something that was said in #13? There was not mention of changing their status or failure to understand that status there -- just that DT wasn't terribly fond of having to keep persons it didn't want on the books or needing to pay them higher rates, benefits, etc.

#15Verfasserhbberlin (420040) 04 Aug 17, 13:27
Kommentar
@15

No, my point was that when the status of Beamter was instituted, and when these BP, DT and DB staff were beamtet, the notion of privatization was not in anyone's head, hence the problem (from the point of view of the newly privatized companies) was not foreseen. So while you might be appointed a Beamter for life, it was reckoned that the entity for which you worked would still be state-run when you died. Hence my 'but'.
#16Verfasserescoville (237761) 04 Aug 17, 17:43
Kommentar
# 13: Der entscheidende Punkt ist, dass Beamte keine Arbeitsverträge haben. Ein Beamter wird ernannt - erst auf Zeit, dann auf Lebenszeit - und die Arbeitsbedingungen und das Gehalt (= "Besoldung") sind per Gesetz geregelt.
Es ist also kein Arbeitsverhältnis im üblichen Sinne.
#17VerfasserQual der Wal (877524) 12 Aug 17, 00:38
Kommentar
@17

We know that. That was the point of the question. Beamte are not Angestellte. That's beyond dispute. The question is, are they employees? That's not the same thing. They are, without a doubt, 'employed', with or without a contract.
#18Verfasserescoville (237761) 12 Aug 17, 15:01
Kommentar
Das war vielleicht missverständlich, tut mir leid.

Ich bezog mich auf hbberlins Satz in # 13
Their contracts differed from the other

Daher meine Klarstellung, dass Beamte keine Verträge haben.
#19VerfasserQual der Wal (877524) 12 Aug 17, 15:32
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