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Yours faithfully oder Yours sincerely

67 Antworten    
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When I'm writing an e-mail to colleagues and it starts with "Dear colleagues" do I use "Yours sincerely" or "Yours faithfully"?
Kommentar
I know I can also use "Best regards" or similar endings, but I just want to know out of curiosity. I know, when I'm writing "Dear Mr Sesambroetchen" that I'm using "Yours sincerely" and when I'm writing "Dear Sir or Madam" I'm writing "Yours faithfully" but what if I'm writing "Dear colleagues"? It's not a direct person but it is not that unknown as "Dear Sir or Madam". I hope, you understand my doubt :-/
VerfasserDasMueh (1062364) 24 Jul 17, 00:21
Kommentar
Ich empfinde beides als zu förmlich für Dear Colleagues. Allenfalls Yours, Vorname, falls Dir die üblichen Varianten mit regards nicht zusagen.
#1Verfassermbshu (874725) 24 Jul 17, 00:41
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Re #0.

First (for reference):

I know I can also use "Best regards" or similar endings, but I just want to know out of curiosity. I know THAT, [no comma] when I'm writEing "Dear Mr Sesambroetchen,[comma]" that I'm usEing "Yours sincerely" and when I'm writEing "Dear Sir or Madam," I'm writEing "Yours faithfully," [comma] but what if I'm writing "Dear colleagues"? It's not a NAMED direct person but it is ALSO not AN that unknown as "Dear Sir or Madam". I hope, [no comma] you understand my doubt.

As to which option you need, it depends on the nature of your relationship with your colleagues. It might not matter very much--though I would definitely avoid anything with "[S.O. B.]" (-;

I might well use "(Best) (R)egards."

PS

So far as I'm aware, "Yours faithfully" has been old-fashioned for some decades now.
#2VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 24 Jul 17, 02:03
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At least for everyday communication in AE, I'd say that a simple "Sincerely," suffices.
#3Verfasserhbberlin (420040) 24 Jul 17, 08:19
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The distinction between 'Yours faithfully' and 'Yours sincerely' is purely BE -- see the forum archive or any BE style manual. It was for traditional written letters and may indeed be needlessly formal for e-mail, but the BE speakers should be the ones to say.

It may depend in part on whether the 'colleagues' are really co-workers in the same office whom you know well, or whether you're using that term to address a large and less familiar group of other people in the same profession, like inviting them to a conference or something.

I agree that 'Sincerely' is fine for AE, or in e-mail, any of a number of other things like 'Regards,' 'Best,' or no particular closing.
#4Verfasserhm -- us (236141) 24 Jul 17, 08:38
Kommentar
the rule is

Yours sincerely - when a person is addressed by name (Dear Ms Smith)
Yours faithfully - when no-one in particular is addressed (Dear Sir/s / Dear Madam etc.)

In emails I'd use "kind regards". This seems to be most widespread in commercial correspondence.

You may also want to note that in modern BE correspondence, no commas are used after the salutation and the date is written 2 March 2017 (no nd/th, no commas, European sequence day/month/year). This is quite different in American English.

Agree with HappyWarrior. A best regards is fine.

#5Verfasserjamqueen (1129860) 24 Jul 17, 10:26
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This is an issue where there are lots of correct answers, and no matter which correct answer you select, someone will think you are doing it wrong.
#6VerfasserRobNYNY (242013) 24 Jul 17, 10:32
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NB There is no DIN standard for English-language letters.... it's all a lot more flexible
#7Verfasserjamqueen (1129860) 24 Jul 17, 10:33
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#6: maybe, maybe not, but there is such a thing as correct idiomatic usage.

'Yours faithfully' is very very old-fashioned in BE.
#8VerfasserJohn_2 (758048) 24 Jul 17, 11:01
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#5: "You may also want to note that in modern BE correspondence, no commas are used after the salutation" - quite untrue.
#9VerfasserJohn_2 (758048) 24 Jul 17, 11:02
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as I said, English is flexible. Perhaps my correspondence is with those who prefer a lack of punctuation and there may well be many who do it differently.
#10Verfasserjamqueen (1129860) 24 Jul 17, 11:21
ÜbersetzungQED
#11VerfasserRobNYNY (242013) 24 Jul 17, 11:44
Kommentar
Ein kurzer Artikel von Merriam-Webster zur Grußformel "Best": https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play...
#12VerfasserRaudona (255425) 24 Jul 17, 12:13
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#8: 'Yours faithfully' is very very old-fashioned in BE.

For emails, John may well be right, although I wouldn't say this is always the case: Siehe auch: Proofreading for covering letter - #19 (admittedly the OP in that recent thread wasn't restricted to BE -- although I doubt this one is either). I wonder what other native BE speakers think, preferably from various age groups (Spike, Captain Flint, Anne (gb), papousek, pipper...?).

And I do still use a comma after salutations, but maybe that's just me and John! :-)
#13VerfasserKinkyAfro (587241) 24 Jul 17, 12:36
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Sorry, Kinky, emails don't come into it. I conduct a lot of written correspondence with all kinds of entities, and have not come across 'Yours faithfully' in many many years, in contexts where (say) 40 years ago it would be unthinkable not to use it.
#14VerfasserJohn_2 (758048) 24 Jul 17, 13:41
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This native BE speaker, aged a little over 50, always puts a comma after the salutation, and, on the rare occasions that I write a letter (not an email) addressed Dear Sir(s), I write Yours faithfully at the end. I wasn't aware I was so terribly old fashioned, but I suppose it's to be expected. Ho hum.
#15Verfasseramw (532814) 24 Jul 17, 17:54
Kommentar
60+ here. Old habits die hard. I would still write "Yours faithfully" in a formal letter after a "Dear Sir/Madam" salutation, never in an e-mail, though. I tend to stick simply to "Regards" there.
#16VerfasserSpike BE (535528) 24 Jul 17, 18:43
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Re ##15 & 16, the same goes for me (60+).
#17VerfasserAnne(gb) (236994) 24 Jul 17, 19:11
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Early 30s. I write and receive a lot of letters at work. I always distinguish between Yours faithfully and Yours sincerely and I'd say 90% of the correspondence we receive does the same. (I work in publishing though, so people writing to us tend to try to pull out all the grammatical stops...) I've noticed no trend away from Yours faithfully. We were taught to use the two correctly at school only 15 years ago. Agree that neither is appropriate for an email.

(I'm a comma-free kind of person and really dislike any formulation with regards. But that's personal preference.)

#18Verfasserpapousek (343122) 24 Jul 17, 19:42
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Kommentar
I'm also puzzled by the strength of John_2's conviction.

"Yours faithfully" (alternatively: "Yours truly") is not old-fashioned in my experience (early 30s) and continues to be used in situations whereby the salutation includes no personal name. It's also what we were taught to use at school (late 1990s). Above are three examples of varied recent sources.
#19VerfasserPipper (917363) 24 Jul 17, 19:44
Kommentar
So, now that we have such a representative collection of BE speakers ...

Have any of you answered the original poster's question about which closing to use after 'Dear colleagues' in an e-mail?
#20Verfasserhm -- us (236141) 24 Jul 17, 20:33
Kommentar
Strictly speaking I suppose it would be 'yours faithfully', but i think all the BE speakers here are agreed that it's too formal for an email, and certainly too formal for an email that begins with an informal 'dear colleagues'.

HW (#2) did you mean to add those Es in to 'writing' and 'using' in your correction of #0?? The OP's spelling is correct (although it would be better in present simple: 'I know that I can write..., but if I want to use..., should I use X or Y?')
#21Verfasserpapousek (343122) 24 Jul 17, 20:55
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#20: Have any of you answered the original poster's question about which closing to use after 'Dear colleagues' in an e-mail?
I said simply "Regards" in my #16.
#22VerfasserSpike BE (535528) 24 Jul 17, 21:05
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Re #21.

Yes. I wasn't correcting his/her spelling of the words; I was indicating that the OP's syntax* is wrong.

*I am assuming here that I know what "syntax" actually means.
#23VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 24 Jul 17, 21:34
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Perhaps more style than syntax? ;)
#24VerfasserJohn_2 (758048) 25 Jul 17, 08:47
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I don't think the OP misspelled words; I think s/he chose the wrong words to spell. (It's not about the spelling.) Yes, it might be considered a matter of "style," but I think it is more fundamental a problem than mere style.

IMO, the OP's:

 "I know, when I'm writing "Dear Mr Sesambroetchen" that I'm using "Yours sincerely" and when I'm writing "Dear Sir or Madam" I'm writing "Yours faithfully"

is at best awkward--and I'd say it's wrong.
#25VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 25 Jul 17, 09:48
Kommentar
HW (#2) did you mean to add those Es in to 'writing' and 'using' in your correction of #0?? The OP's spelling is correct (although it would be better in present simple: 'I know that I can write..., but if I want to use..., should I use X or Y?')

I'm not HW, but I can see that the "E"s that were added in #2 are correct -- because HW changed the text to read exactly as appears in the last line of #21. Is it possible that the letters that were crossed out don't appear as such on certain devices?
#26Verfasserhbberlin (420040) 25 Jul 17, 10:14
Kommentar
Yes, thanks for pointing that out, hbberlin.


PS

It's not just the choice of words (or word forms); the punctuation is also wrong.

The d****d strike-out function does not always serve its purpose.
#27VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 25 Jul 17, 10:21
Kommentar
re # 20. I did in # 5. I think it's a matter of personal preference whether you use regards, best regards or kind regards.

NB I would question the use of "dear colleagues" in a BE email. Reminds me of "liebe Kollegen" and, in my experience, wouldn't really be used.
#28Verfasserjamqueen (1129860) 25 Jul 17, 10:39
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Off topic "grammatical terms": Wenn present progressive (in manchen Grammatiken: continuous) statt simple present verwendet wird, ist es keine Frage von syntax (structure of sentences, word order, sequencing of subject, verb, object ...) oder style, sondern von aspect.

jamqueen, in den Firmen, in denen ich bislang gearbeitet habe (Werbung, Buchverlag), ist "Liebe Kolleginnen und Kollegen" absolut üblich.
#29VerfasserRaudona (255425) 25 Jul 17, 10:44
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OT, this is what HW's #2 looks like on my screen:

I know I can also use "Best regards" or similar endings, but I just want to know out of curiosity. I know THAT, [no comma] when I'm writEing "Dear Mr Sesambroetchen,[comma]" that I'm usEing "Yours sincerely" and when I'm writEing "Dear Sir or Madam," I'm writEing "Yours faithfully," [comma] but what if I'm writing "Dear colleagues"? It's not a NAMED direct person but it is ALSO not AN that unknown as "Dear Sir or Madam". I hope, [no comma] you understand my doubt.

I was so confused!
#30Verfasserpapousek (343122) 25 Jul 17, 11:07
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Like jamqueen I'd never use 'dear colleagues', and I'd be surprised to see it from a BE native speaker. I'd expect 'dear all' or similar
#31Verfasserpapousek (343122) 25 Jul 17, 11:08
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Ah, wahrscheinlich habe ich jamqueen falsch verstanden. Also: Im Deutschen ist "Liebe Kolleginnen und Kollegen" nach meiner Erfahrung üblich, im Englischen schreibt man aber normalerweise nicht "Dear colleagues". Richtig?
#32VerfasserRaudona (255425) 25 Jul 17, 11:14
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Re #30 (and #27).

Part of the problem, apparently, was that:
The d****d strike-out function does not always serve its purpose.
#33VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 25 Jul 17, 11:16
Kommentar
Re #32: Right.

But in order to suggest better options for the salutation, it might help to know how well the writer knows these 'colleagues,' as I mentioned in #4.
#34Verfasserhm -- us (236141) 25 Jul 17, 11:33
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''Dear colleagues" is rather smarmy in BE, but certainly not unheard of.
#35VerfasserJohn_2 (758048) 25 Jul 17, 11:50
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perhaps in some international organisations it's a case of (linguistic) interference.
#36Verfasserjamqueen (1129860) 25 Jul 17, 11:54
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So going back to the question of what salutation to use when writing an email to multiple colleagues, I've just sampled the recent contents of my 'Sent' folder and come up with the following breakdown for emails written in English to two or more colleagues:

>50x [no salutation]*
3x Dear all,
2x Hi,

* Many but by no means all of those with no salutation were replies or simple one-liners, so maybe not all of them should count.

In virtually all of these emails I've signed off simply with my initial:

A.

No Yours anything or regards, though I sometimes do use Regards.

Make of that what you will - am I a particularly rude email writer? - or am I more collegial with my colleagues than most?


#37Verfasseramw (532814) 25 Jul 17, 15:15
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Kommentar
#28 and #31: Again, this is not my experience. "Dear Colleagues" is used in several contexts in BE, particularly within predominantly unionised workforces. The list of examples I gave in #19 includes one such instance (medical profession), but here are another three recent examples of native speaker usage for the sake of clarity.

I also know it to be used frequently between members of the teaching profession, from schools right up to higher education institutions. What some consider smarminess is seen by others as an expression of professional solidarity.
#38VerfasserPipper (917363) 25 Jul 17, 18:14
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I might use Dear colleagues for a large group of fellow professionals but probably not for a group of people I actually work with on a regular basis.

Except in cases where an email serves as an electronic version of what would otherwise have been a formal postal letter, no one gets Sincerely yours; Yours sincerely and Yours faithfully would be increasingly unlikely. Yours would be a stretch. I don't much like Regards, but use it or Sincerely when something has to be there.

I never use any sort of closing in an email to one or more colleagues and rarely in most other email that does not take the form of a postal letter or other first communications with a stranger or very important person, with the exception of some communications with foreigners who seem to expect it. Even then I quickly drop most salutations and all closings (beyond a first name or initial) for followups.

The first email in a new series to a close friend or relative gets a friendly Hi or even Hey X and a first name (or "Dad") for a closing (possibly preceded by a sentence or phrase of affection). Followups might get neither.
#39VerfasserJurist (US) (804041) 25 Jul 17, 18:20
Kommentar
#38: Whether it is or isn't smarmy is obviously a matter of personal opinion, but at least we are in agreement (other posters' comments notwithstanding) that it is perfectly acceptable BE :)
#40VerfasserJohn_2 (758048) 25 Jul 17, 19:50
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just for the record. Nobody thought it was unacceptable. Just not something that would be used in a general (office) environment.
#41Verfasserjamqueen (1129860) 25 Jul 17, 20:13
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DasMueh, gehen deine Mails an English native speakers oder an eine gemischte Gruppe? Wenn Englisch als lingua franca verwendet wird, dann "gehört" es den ENS nicht mehr, sondern man muss berücksichtigen, dass etwas, das für ENS normal ist, bei Deutschen, arabischsprechenden Menschen oder ChinesInnen für Irritationen sorgen könnte.

Obwohl ich weiß, dass ENS ganz gut ohne Grußformel auskommen können, empfinde ich es als unhöflich, eine Konversation (egal ob per Mail, Telefon oder im direkten Gespräch) ohne rituellen Abschluss (nichts anderes ist ja eine Grußformel) zu beenden ... (Wie Jurist in #39 schreibt: "with the exception of some communications with foreigners who seem to expect it.")
#42VerfasserRaudona (255425) 25 Jul 17, 21:22
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#41 - #31 did
#43VerfasserJohn_2 (758048) 25 Jul 17, 22:59
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John! I think that's unfair. I said in #31 I'd be 'surprised' to see 'dear colleagues' -- that's very different to thinking something's unacceptable.
#44Verfasserpapousek (343122) 25 Jul 17, 23:07
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I think the sentence taken as a whole expresses strong objection to the phrase.
#45VerfasserJohn_2 (758048) 26 Jul 17, 08:37
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Gerade in TIME Magazine gelesen: Laut einer Studie werden diejenigen Mails, die mit "thanks" o.ä. enden, am ehesten beantworten, während "best" weit abgeschlagen ist. http://time.com/money/4880284/this-is-the-onl...
#46VerfasserRaudona (255425) 02 Aug 17, 21:17
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#46, now that you mention it, most of my emails close with Thanks (or Thanks for ...), [first name or even initial]. Otherwise, often something like See you soon or Best of luck [with something]. Regards is only for foreigners who might expect it.

Semi-OT: \ rant on
I have never written and hope never again to real "Thanks in advance", which always strikes me as saying, "I'm to busy or important or self-centered to bother to actually thank you (if and) when you help me or otherwise do as I requested."

I took a year or so off from LEO forums a while back. While I didn't get some to the changed conditions I had hoped for, it does seem that fewer OPs offer thanks in advance.
\ rant off

#47VerfasserJurist (US) (804041) 02 Aug 17, 21:57
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"Regards is only for foreigners who might expect it." - ah well, I suppose I am a 'foreigner', then ... (shrug)
#48VerfasserJohn_2 (758048) 03 Aug 17, 09:19
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It really depends whether it's a mail to/from other staff (co-workers) or whether you're communicating with a business, a bank or HMRC for example. If it's a customer you know well (or vice versa) then a more casual approach is often used.

BTW Agree with Jurist # 47. Most Germans are not aware how off-putting their English version of Vielen Dank im Voraus is.
#49Verfasserjamqueen (1129860) 03 Aug 17, 09:58
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#47 und #49: Ist nicht so ziemlich jedes "Thanks" unter einem Mailtext nur eine Ellipse für "Thanks in advance"?
#50VerfasserDer Handelsmann (913179) 03 Aug 17, 10:22
Quellen
My mother's etiquette book by Emily Post (the equivalent of Knigge) had something like 40 pages of the exact words to use in writing letters. How do I address the Pope? If I'm not Catholic? How does a married woman sign a letter to a married man who was once divorced? How do I address the Orleanists and the Bourbonists if I am a Bonapartist? Is "yours most sincerely" too much for the granddaughter of a duke writing to the stepson of a baron? Or not enough? When is "I remain your humble etc." correct?
#51VerfasserRobNYNY (242013) 03 Aug 17, 10:36
Kommentar
Ah, but what if the granddaughter of a duke, the one who is writing to the stepson of a baron, was married to (but divorced) someone who had previously been the dancing companion of a dowager queen?
#52VerfasserJohn_2 (758048) 03 Aug 17, 14:10
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Oh, da sind wir Deutschen doch unkomplizierter: Beim Besuch von William und Kate (sic) in Deutschland riefen die winkenden, fotografierenden Menschen ganz einfach "William!" oder "Kate!", damit sich die Fotomotive ihnen zuwandten. Hat funktioniert, ganz ohne "Your Highness" oder so.
#53VerfasserRaudona (255425) 03 Aug 17, 14:46
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re # 50. No, the "in advance" is not - ever -used, see also Jurist's comments. Different mentality.
#54Verfasserjamqueen (1129860) 03 Aug 17, 14:51
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What do you mean? Of course it's used.
#55VerfasserJohn_2 (758048) 03 Aug 17, 16:16
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# 47: "'Thanks in advance', which always strikes me as saying, 'I'm to busy or important or self-centered to bother to actually thank you (if and) when you help me or otherwise do as I requested.'"

Interessant. Von der Seite habe ich das noch nie gesehen. Ich empfinde 'Vielen Dank im voraus' nicht als Ersatz für den gebührenden Dank im Nachhinein, sondern eher als eine Art Anzahlung. Ich bin zuversichtlich, die erbetene Hilfe zu erhalten (oder tue zumindest so), und möchte bereits jetzt zum Ausdruck bringen: für diese Hilfe werde ich dankbar sein.
#56Verfassermbshu (874725) 03 Aug 17, 17:54
Kommentar
#54: No, the "in advance" is not - ever -used
You may not like it, but that's an entirely different matter.

Jurist's interpretation in #47 would never have crossed my mind. I would certainly use it on occasion - in the interests of politeness. Just shows how interpretations can vary.
#57VerfasserSpike BE (535528) 03 Aug 17, 18:57
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thanks for your reply Spike. I've not come across it and certainly wouldn't use it. But there you go.
#58Verfasserjamqueen (1129860) 03 Aug 17, 19:10
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Ich stimme #56 und #57 zu - ich emfpinde "danke im Voraus" sicher nicht als Ersatz für einen späteren Dank. Allerdings zögere ich, es zu nutzen. Ich weiß ja - vor allen Dingen bei etwas aufwändigeren Anfragen, die auch ablehnend beantwortet werden könnten - gar nicht, ob ich mich hinterher bedanken will.
#59Verfasserthisismyknick (1117613) 03 Aug 17, 19:13
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Das mit dem hinterher Bedanken ist so eine Sache: Damit stehle ich dem Menschen, der schon etwas für mich getan hat, ja seine Zeit, weil die Dankesmail auch geöffnet und gelesen werden will. Und wenn ich in Outlook auf "Unterhaltung aufräumen" klicke, habe ich als letzte Mail die Dankesmail und muss mich beim späteren Nachlesen dann erst zum Inhalt durch-lesen.
#60VerfasserRaudona (255425) 03 Aug 17, 19:16
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In a current thread, the OP closes with Danke für jede Hilfe! While that's not necessary, I find it appropriate and certainly unobjectionable, in contrast to my gut reaction to Thanks in advance.
#61VerfasserJurist (US) (804041) 05 Aug 17, 16:48
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Kommentar
just a bit of chat on the topic. I'm afraid it's on facebook but I thought it was quite pertinent (comments as well).
#62Verfasserjamqueen (1129860) 12 Aug 17, 08:47
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Aus dem Link in # 46:

Of all the closings in Boomerang’s survey, “thanks in advance” got the best response rate (65.7%) followed by “thanks,” (63%), and “thank you,” (57.9%).
#63VerfasserQual der Wal (877524) 12 Aug 17, 15:56
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they still recommend a simple "thanks".....
#64Verfasserjamqueen (1129860) 12 Aug 17, 17:31
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All of this is a matter of personal preference. I am not offended whenever anyone thanks me, so long as it seems to be sincere.
#65VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 12 Aug 17, 20:54
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I am not offended any road, although I may think the writer is a hypocrite if it's evidently insincere :)
#66VerfasserJohn_2 (758048) 13 Aug 17, 16:35
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Just another online reference

http://m.wikihow.com/End-a-Letter-Sincerely
#67VerfasserMein Fritz (862420) 13 Aug 17, 19:23
i Nur registrierte Benutzer können in diesem Forum posten
 
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