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...je nach dem wen man zu welchem Zeitpunkt fragt

21 Antworten    

...depending on who you ask at what time

Ist das so korrekt? Oder hat jemand einen anderen Vorschlag der eleganter klingt?
VerfasserRobidop (1083100) 10 Aug 17, 22:40
Das ist so korrekt. Alternativ evtl.: depending on who you ask when.
#1Verfasserdude (253248) 10 Aug 17, 22:52
I don't know about the German, but for the English I'd probably say:

It depends on who and when you ask.
#2VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 11 Aug 17, 02:18
Deutsch: Je nachdem, [Komma] wen man ....

'zu welchem Zeitpunkt' = at which point in time
... falls man hier genauer übersetzen will/muss, denn es steht ja nicht 'wann' im Original.

#3VerfasserBraunbärin (757733) 11 Aug 17, 07:06
In America, we often criticize (for being unnecessarily wordy) "at which point in time" when all that is really meant is "when."
#4VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 11 Aug 17, 07:57
#4, ja, nur hätte man im deutschen Original ja auch 'wann' schreiben können... Da das nicht der Fall ist, mag es einen Grund für dieses genauere "zu welchem Zeitpunkt' geben....
#5VerfasserBraunbärin (757733) 11 Aug 17, 15:59
I guess it depends on whether your interest is mainly to make a word-for-word translation or, instead, to write better English. The main object, it seems to me, is to communicate using the best English.
#6VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 11 Aug 17, 21:40
"who and when" wäre korrekt, wenn im Original "wen und wann" stehen würde. Das steht da aber nicht. "wen ... zu welchem Zeitpunkt" heißt, dass bestimmte Personen mit bestimmten Zeitpunkten in Verbindung gebracht werden. Also z.B.:
"Den Chef solltest du nach einem guten Fußballspiel fragen, ob du Urlaub haben kannst, dann hat er noch gute Laune. Den Buchhalter solltest du kurz vor Feierabend fragen, ob er dir die Spesenrechnung abzeichnet, dann will er schnell nach Hause."

"wen und wann" hingegen hieße, dass es passende Personen und passende Zeitpunkte gibt.

Natürlich sind die Übergänge fließend. Wenn aber das Original bewusst so formuliert wurde, sollten die Nuancen auch in der Übersetzung erhalten bleiben.
#7VerfasserRaudona (255425) 12 Aug 17, 00:16
I agree with Raudona. Short is not always best. I, for one, wish Trump, for instance, would speak a bit more elaborately and, dare I say, presidentially. His twitter-style speech making tends to be pretty embarrassing, imo.

I think there's a time and a place for a "now," but there's also room for "at this time" and similar phrases, imo.
#8Verfasserdude (253248) 12 Aug 17, 00:25
We've seen what dude recommended (#1), which IMO is somewhat awkwardly worded.

I would be interested to see how Raudona would put the OP in English.
#9VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 12 Aug 17, 01:43
I would be interested to see how Raudona would put the OP in English.

Das hat sie doch geschrieben?
Happy Wartior, sicherlich ist dein Vorschlag die elegantere und kürzere Version - genau wie es auf Deutsch eleganter und kürzer wäre zu sagen "je nachdem, wen man wann fragt".

Der OP hat aber nicht "wen man wann fragt" geschrieben, sondern "wen man zu welchem Zeitpunkt fragt". D.h. das einfache "wann" ist extra hervorgehoben,, extra betont und daher wohl besonders wichtig.

Wie könnte man diese Betonung des "wann" im Englischen ebenfalls ausdrücken?

#10VerfasserQual der Wal (877524) 12 Aug 17, 09:22
People are free to translate (or otherwise express themselves) as they wish, of course. What I have been trying to point out is that I believe most Americans consider such expressions as "at which point in time" (#3) to be just an unnecessarily long (and perhaps annoying) way to say "now" (or, in the past tense, "then"). See #4.

Taking the liberty* to speak for most Americans, I think we would not be impressed or inspired or better informed by the use of anything beyond "now."

*Someone will probably say that I don't have the right to speak for most Americans. Well, that is perhaps true. Yet, it is my belief that many, if not most, Americans would prefer a simple "now"; and they would discern no benefit from hearing or reading a longer version of "now."
#11VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 12 Aug 17, 10:53
Yet, it is my belief that ...

I think that's a wonderful yet wordy concept when the shorter version (and perhaps preferred by most Americans?) would have been, "Yet, I believe that ..."

But as beliefs go, "God" is a belief, too, and it seems to work for many, but certainly not all.
#12Verfasserdude (253248) 12 Aug 17, 14:15
I'd say
depending on who you ask(,) and when.

I personally prefer this to 'who and when you ask'. It does also gives the 'when' a bit more emphasis (see #10).

Like HW, I don't think you gain anything by using 'point in time'. (By the way, if at all, I would say 'at what point in time'.)
We often don't use 'point in time' to translate 'Zeitpunkt'.
#13VerfasserHecuba - UK (250280) 12 Aug 17, 15:06
Wäre "It depends on who and at which time you ask" ein tragfähiger Kompromiss? Ok, nicht wirklich kürzer...
#14Verfasservirus (343741) 12 Aug 17, 15:49
Support #13 on all points and not #14.
#15VerfasserJurist (US) (804041) 12 Aug 17, 18:03
Is it really about "gaining" anything? Isn't it more about style and personal preference? We don't all say things the same way just for the sake of streamlining our speech, do we? Some people simply like to express themselves differently than others, and I see nothing wrong with it. Life would be boring if we all thought or even spoke the same way. Just because some think "when" is preferable to "at what time" or whatever, that doesn't make either one better or "correcter." IMO, of course.
#16Verfasserdude (253248) 12 Aug 17, 18:20
Isn't it more about style and personal preference?
Certainly: I was just expressing my opinion that 'when' is as good, in this instance, as the longer phrase. (As far as I can tell -- we have no context to go on.)

Another point I forgot to make: strictly speaking it would be correct to say 'whom you ask', but the use of 'you' suggests that this text is relatively informal, so that 'who' is appropriate.
#17VerfasserHecuba - UK (250280) 12 Aug 17, 18:49
Another point I forgot to make: strictly speaking it would be correct to say 'whom you ask', but the use of 'you' suggests that this text is relatively informal, so that 'who' is appropriate.
Thank you for bringing that up, Hecuba - UK. Precisely that point had been annoying me since the thread began, but I know that the loss of "whom" from English is quite widespread, and I know some folks personally who argue that it should never be used. I don't agree with them (or should I say "with they" to match their usage of "who" as an object?) ;-)
#18Verfasserhbberlin (420040) 12 Aug 17, 20:28
I was actually gong to bring that point up right after #6 (... instead, to write better English), but I didn't want to get locked into another battle bereft of sense and end. :)
#19Verfasserdude (253248) 12 Aug 17, 20:30
Re #19.
but I didn't want to get locked into another battle bereft of sense and end.

Yes, you have used the utmost restraint and never mentioned anything about it. You are able to make a dig while telling yourself how great and noble you are.

But re bereft of sense and end: What are you talking about? What do you see wrong with "to write better English"?  (Or was your point that you are opposed to understanding and writing better English?)
#20VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 12 Aug 17, 20:44
I was making a joke. No need to get going again. I'm sorry I said anything at all.
#21Verfasserdude (253248) 12 Aug 17, 21:10
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