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  • Betrifft

    Aussprache "Saint"

    Kommentar
    Es geht mir hauptsächlich um die Aussprache des großgeschriebenen "Saint". Heute habe ich in dem neuesten Newsletter des DUDEN gelesen: "Saint/St. als erster Bestandteil englischsprachiger Ortsnamen wird im britischen Englisch regelmäßig zu [sǝnt] reduziert, im amerikanischen Englisch jedoch unreduziert wie das Substantiv als [seɪ̯nt] gesprochen." Hierauf wird in LEO bei Eingabe des Suchworts "Saint" nicht hingewiesen; Für "St. Bernhard" wird überhaupt keine Aussprache angegeben. Es wird lediglich die Aussprache des kleingeschriebenen "saint" angeboten, das wohl im AE und im BE gleich ausgesprochen wird. Sollte auf die unterschiedlichen Aussprachen (AE und BE) von "St. Bernhard" nicht im Wörterbuch hingewiesen werden?

    Und wie steht es mit der Rechtschreibung von "St." im Englischen? Mit oder ohne Punkt? LEO lässt den Punkt weg.


    Verfasser U2300 (914595) 10 Nov. 17, 09:48
    Kommentar
    Ich war etwas zu voreilig. Sucht man im Wörterbuch nach "St", findet man einen Eintrag mit britischer Aussprache für "St Nicholas". Allerdings keine amerikanische Aussprache.
    #1Verfasser U2300 (914595) 10 Nov. 17, 10:00
    Kommentar
    And then there’s the surname St John, pronounced /ˈsɪndʒən/.
    #2Verfasser Stravinsky (637051) 10 Nov. 17, 10:16
    Kommentar
    LEO hat generell die englische Aussprache, so weit ich weiß.

    Ohne Punkt ist tendenziell britisch, analog zu Mr, Dr etc. (Man findet es aber auch mit Punkt).
    #3Verfasser Gibson (418762) 10 Nov. 17, 10:25
    Kommentar
    'Bernhard' with an H is German; in English he's St. Bernard.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Bernard_(...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard

    You're right to notice an AE/BE difference in the pronunciation of that name. But is it different for the dog (or the saint of Clairvaux) as opposed to the playwright? I couldn't begin to speak for BE, but Wikipedia gives one pronunciation for 'St Bernard' that clearly isn't AE, so is it BE?

    St Bernard BE /sn ˈbɜː(r)nə(r)d/ (???)
    St. Bernard AE /seint bərˈnɑːrd/

    I feel more secure about the playwright, who follows the usual pronunciation on either side of the pond.

    George Bernard Shaw BE /ˈbə(r)nə(r)d/
    George Bernard Shaw AE /bərˈnɑːrd/

    Sorry, that doesn't really address your question about 'St.' But you already seem to have noticed that in BE it may have no vowel at all, whereas in AE it rhymes with 'faint' (bzw. 'feint').

    #4Verfasser hm -- us (236141) 10 Nov. 17, 11:14
    Kommentar
    And then there’s the surname St John, pronounced /ˈsɪndʒən/.

    Und die Insel St. Helena, ausgesprochen [ˌsɪntəˈliːna]
    #5Verfasser JanZ (805098) 10 Nov. 17, 13:32
    Kommentar
    #4 Wikipedia gives one pronunciation for 'St Bernard' that clearly isn't AE, so is it BE?
    St Bernard BE /sn ˈbɜː(r)nə(r)d/ (???)

    Where does it give this?
    What sound is represented by ɜː(r)? -- is it different from ə(r) as in Shaw's name?
    And does it really say 'sn'?
    #6VerfasserHecuba - UK (250280) 10 Nov. 17, 18:01
    Kommentar
    In contemporary BE, AFAIK, "saint" always rhymes with "faint", except in some instances of "St. John" (e.g. the name Norman St John-Stevas). I wasn't aware, for instance, that "St. Helena" had a special pronunciation.
    #7VerfasserKinkyAfro (587241) 10 Nov. 17, 18:46
    Kommentar
    I'm sorry, I don't agree. For RP I think the statement in #0 is correct: "Saint/St. als erster Bestandteil englischsprachiger Ortsnamen wird im britischen Englisch regelmäßig zu [sǝnt] reduziert..."
    I would say that the "full" pronunciation of "St" in saint's names, place names, etc., is regional.
    #8VerfasserHecuba - UK (250280) 10 Nov. 17, 20:09
    Kommentar
    What sound is represented by ɜː(r)? -- is it different from ə(r) as in Shaw's name?

    [ɜː] is the sound of the vowel in girl. And that's how I pronounce Shaw's second name, too. As far as my GB experience (as a non-ns) is concerned, the [ə] doesn't work because no word can contain that sound as the only vowel sound. Compare the English Wiki. I seem to remember, however, that newer editions of the Oxford dictionaries have introduced a long schwa [ə:] for the girl-sound (can't check at the moment).
    #9Verfasser sebastianW (382026) 10 Nov. 17, 20:50
    Kommentar
    #8:

    (OT:)
    This reminds me of the way the Germans insist on pronouncing Sir (as part of a name): SIR Edmund Hillary, SIR Roger Norrington. The only pronunciation I’ve ever heard from English native speakers is an unemphasised /sə/.

    Edith:
    (even further OT:)
    And more often than not, they don’t realise that short form isn’t Sir Hillary/Sir Norringtion, but Sir Edmund/Sir Roger.
    #10Verfasser Stravinsky (637051) 10 Nov. 17, 21:29
    Kommentar
    Re St. Helena: Like #8, I'm not sure where #5's pronunciation comes from. I would pronounce "saint" like "faint", but St. Bernard and St. Helena like "sent".
    #11Verfasser Spike BE (535528) 10 Nov. 17, 21:46
    Kommentar
    #10:
    the short form
    (sorry)
    #12Verfasser Stravinsky (637051) 10 Nov. 17, 21:49
    Kommentar
    #9 Thanks, sebastianW. I don't remember coming across the symbol [ɜː] before.

    Yes, Oxford online seems to have the long [ə:].
    Interestingly, I have an old booklet published by the Phonetics Association (1949, reprinted 1971), and I see that it uses [ə:] in a broad transcription of a passage and [ɜː] in a narrower one.
    #13VerfasserHecuba - UK (250280) 10 Nov. 17, 21:50
    Kommentar
    Sorry, sorry, I seem to have jumbled together two kinds of phonetic symbols, so thanks for clueing me in. I confess I had sort of basteled those together from various parts, because the Wiki article on the name Bernard itself didn't discuss pronunciations. I didn't even notice that the /ɜː/ was facing backwards, since I hadn't ever seen it either. So I thought it must sound like Bern (CH), even though I knew the playwright sounds like Burnard in BE, which was the point I was trying to make. The (r) was just because it's usually omitted in BE, but not always.

    Never mind, just forget I said anything -- I didn't mean to confuse the issue.
    #14Verfasser hm -- us (236141) 10 Nov. 17, 21:50
    Kommentar
    Edit to my #11: I meant #7 rather than #8.
    #15Verfasser Spike BE (535528) 10 Nov. 17, 21:51
    Kommentar
    And of course I defer to the BE speakers on 'St'; my broader point was just that the AE vowel is usually a long A, but that in BE apparently it's often or sometimes a schwa. But maybe that's not right either.
    #16Verfasser hm -- us (236141) 10 Nov. 17, 21:53
    Kommentar
    At least according to OUP rules, conventionally
    "Saint" is abbreviated "St" and
    "Street" is abbreviated "St.".
    #17VerfasserMikeE (236602) 10 Nov. 17, 23:01
    Kommentar
    I think it's normally either a schwa or a short i in British English.

    Incidentally I wouldn't put a point after an St whether it means Saint or Street. We have the last letter in both cases.
    Where both come in one name, as quite often happens, it looks odd:
    St Anne St (in Chester, for example).

    #18Verfasser escoville (237761) 11 Nov. 17, 17:15
    Kommentar
    OT: I would write St. Anne St. and consider anything else too foreign or strange for comfort. 
    #19Verfasser Jurist (US) (804041) 11 Nov. 17, 17:27
    Kommentar
    Re St. Helena: Like #8, I'm not sure where #5's pronunciation comes from.

    Laut de.wikipedia aus dem Online-OALD, zu dem ich keinen Zugang habe. In meiner Offlineversion kommt der Name gar nicht vor.
    #20Verfasser JanZ (805098) 12 Nov. 17, 16:11
     
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