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    Why we have two words for Fall/Autumn

    Topic

    Why we have two words for Fall/Autumn

    Comment
    The question of Fall or Autumn was discussed in this forum recently:
    related discussion: autumn and fall

    I read an article today, discussion the very topic:
    http://news.yahoo.com/why-does-fall-autumn-tw...

    Excerpt:
    In the 17th century, "fall" came into use, almost certainly as a poetic complement to "spring," and it competed with the other terms.

    Finally, in the 18th century, "harvest" had lost its seasonal meaning altogether, and "fall" and "autumn" emerged as the two accepted names for the third season. But by the 19th century, "fall" had become an "Americanism": a word primarily used in the United States and one that was frowned upon by British lexicographers.

    The persistence of two terms for the third season in the United States, while somewhat of a mystery, may have something to do with the spread of English to the American continent at the very epoch when "fall" began jockeying for position with "autumn": the 17th century. At that time, both terms were adopted stateside, and the younger, more poetic "fall" gained the upper hand. Back in Britain, however, "autumn" won out. The continued acceptance of "autumn" in the United States may reflect the influence, or at least the proximity, of English culture and literature.

    According to Slate, British lexicographers begrudgingly admit that the United States got the better end of the stick. In "The King's English" (1908), H.W. Fowler wrote, "Fall is better on the merits than autumn, in every way: it is short, Saxon (like the other three season names), picturesque; it reveals its derivation to every one who uses it, not to the scholar only, like autumn."
    Author svaihingen (705121) 02 Oct 12, 23:07
    Comment
    And the Germans have two (or three) words for spring: Frühling, Lenz and (if it counts as a season) Frühjahr.
    #1Author Stravinsky (637051) 02 Oct 12, 23:46
    Comment
    And the Germans have two (or three) words for spring: Frühling, Lenz and (if it counts as a season) Frühjahr.

    Yes, it counts ... we even have two words for Saturday ... Samstag and Sonnabend ... not to count the various methods for telling the time ...  Siehe Archiv : viertel dreiviertel ...
    :-)
    #2Author no me bré (700807) 02 Oct 12, 23:52
    Comment
    Und mich überraschen immer wieder mal die offenbar gemeinsamen Wurzeln mancher Wörter, die dann aber in den verschiedenen Sprachen unterschiedliche Weiterentwicklungen in der Bedeutung durchgemacht haben:

    Herbst - harvest
    Lenz - lent
    #3AuthorCalifornia81 (642214) 03 Oct 12, 00:00
    Comment
    And there are two words for January: Januar and (Austrian) Jänner.

    Edith wants to remind everyone that there are no kangaroos in Austria.
    https://www.google.de/search?q=no+kangaroos+i...
    #4Author Stravinsky (637051) 03 Oct 12, 00:12
    Comment
    I like fall for its melancholy connotations and I like autumn for its bizarre spelling.
    #5Author Gibson (418762) 03 Oct 12, 00:15
    Comment
    Wasn't there a character in C. S. Lewis called Tumnus, a faun? Do the parts of autumn mean anything else?
    #6Author hm -- us (236141) 03 Oct 12, 00:26
    Comment
    for its bizarre spelling? You mean like
    solemn
    column
    limn
    condemn
    damn
    hymn
    etc.?
    #7Author dude (253248) 03 Oct 12, 00:26
    Comment
    Yes. Why would it be any less bizarre just because there are others that follow the same pattern? (No idea what limn is when it's at home, though)
    #8Author Gibson (418762) 03 Oct 12, 00:30
    Comment
    I personally don't think it's all that bizarre. Consider that the words come from Latin and most likely used to end in "-mnus" in that language and I think you'd have to agree it makes sense (somewhat).
    #9Author dude (253248) 03 Oct 12, 00:32
    Comment
    dude, you don't have to find it bizarre. I do. Jesus. Can't I find things bizarre without having to justify it? What is this?
    #10Author Gibson (418762) 03 Oct 12, 00:34
    Comment
    By all means, feel free. I wasn't telling you not to.
    #11Author dude (253248) 03 Oct 12, 00:37
    Comment
    Nicht ärgern (lassen), Gibson!
    Ein kleiner Scherz - und schon graben manche lateinische Wurzeln aus.
    Umnheimlich!
    #12Author Emil 14 (299747) 03 Oct 12, 00:57
    Comment
    @4 - do these signs actually exist? Are they from a comedy show?

    Just checked out some of the photos - I am amazed that people at post offices in Austria and Australia have bags full of mail that was incorrectly addressed.
    #13Author ElkeAUS (525682) 03 Oct 12, 02:39
    Comment
    @ElkeAUS: Diese T-Shirts sind an wirklich jedem österreichischen Souvenirstand erhältlich.
    #14Author RE1 (236905) 03 Oct 12, 02:45
    Comment
    @14 Dann sollte ich vielleicht ein bisschen toleranter meinen jüngeren Schülern gegenüber sein, wenn sie das verwechseln. Oder vielleicht gerade nicht. (?)
    #15Author ElkeAUS (525682) 03 Oct 12, 02:48
    Comment
    Well, Bush became a U.S. President without being able to distinguish the two. ;-)

    I'd still be tough on your students, nonetheless.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-48049...
    #16Author Ffive (876338) 03 Oct 12, 03:21
    Comment
    to me autumnal is evocative, while fall strikes me as a prosaic reminder of leaves dropping. try to form a word like autumnal based on fall.... fall has no ring to it - lacks melody... but is useful when clocks change...

    wie dich in Wort beruehrt haengt vom individuellen Kopfkino ab....
    #17Authornoli (489500) 03 Oct 12, 04:01
    Comment
    There was a young fellow named Hall
    Who fell in a spring in the fall.
    'Twould have been a sad thing
    Had he died in the spring,
    But he didn't - he died in the fall.
    #18Author ion1122 (443218) 03 Oct 12, 04:19
    Comment
    Somehow it would be more of a shocker had it ended in "... in the autumn", ion. ;-)

    Or, is it a pun because he "fell" (in the "fall")? Hmmm. I just realized the joke.
    #19Author Ffive (876338) 03 Oct 12, 04:26
    Comment
    Stravinsky #4,
    Also laut der alphabetischen Liste der Tiere im Schönbrunner Zoo
    http://tierdoku.com/index.php?title=Tiere-K
    gibt's Kängurus, zumindest in diesem Teil des 13. Wiener Gemeindebezirks!



    But: bizarre spellings:

    Der Pneu
    Das Knie
    Zwetschge, Zwiesel, Zwiderwurzen, zwar, Zwerg, zwischen, zwei
    #20Author ad.joe (236303) 03 Oct 12, 09:40
    Comment
    And there are two words for January: Januar and (Austrian) Jänner.

    Yes, but they are used exclusively, i.e. Austrians refer to the first month in the year as Jänner, while Germans use Januar; it's not interchangeable.

    do these signs actually exist? Are they from a comedy show?

    These signs do exist as a somewhat tongue-in-cheek souvenir, mostly used on t-shirts and the like. And yes, mix-ups are so common that it's advisable to address letters to "Austria, Europe" in order to avoid any confusion.

    It works both ways, though: A few years back at the G20 summit in Seoul they had life-size paper cutouts and other dolls in national customs, the Australians wearing traditional Austrian dirndls :)
    #21Author Carullus (670120) 03 Oct 12, 09:44
    Comment
    Eigentlich sind wir mit deutscher Muttersprache daran gewohnt, dass es im Englischen für jeden Begriff mindestens(!) zwei Wörter gibt. Eines mit germanischen Wurzeln und eines mit romanischen oder normannischen Wurzeln.

    Dazu hat man in England wohl lange Zeit versucht, Englisch Wörter möglichst französisch zu schreiben, und dann kommt wirklich ein "strange spelling" raus: centre.
    #22Author Uljae (831733) 03 Oct 12, 10:36
    Comment
    And there are two words for January: Januar and (Austrian) Jänner.

    There's another: Hartung. Followed by Hornung. (Both masculine, incidentally.)
    #23Author escoville (237761) 03 Oct 12, 11:15
    Comment
    @18: Das hat mir meinen Herbstmorgen heute versüßt! Danke! o)
    #24Author bel (253478) 03 Oct 12, 11:28
    Comment
    There's another: Hartung.

    Let's stick to words in common use, shall we?
    #25Author Carullus (670120) 03 Oct 12, 11:31
    Comment
    Let's stick to words in common use, shall we?

    Unterthänigst, den 3. Gilbhart 2012.
    #26Author escoville (237761) 03 Oct 12, 12:22
    Comment
    And there are two words for January: Januar and (Austrian) Jänner.

    Sowie Februar und (österreichisch) Feber.
    #27Author Restitutus (765254) 04 Oct 12, 19:39
    Comment
    Speaking of words in common use, Feber has been on its way out for some time. It's perfectly fine to use Februar, and these days most people do, I think.
    #28Author Carullus (670120) 04 Oct 12, 19:48
    Comment
    Denkst du? Mir begegnet es beim möglichst-schnell-Hindurchkommen durch Österreich immer wieder.
    #29Author Restitutus (765254) 04 Oct 12, 19:50
    Comment
    Resti, als Österreicher habe ich Feber noch nie in den Mund genommen, vielleicht eher noch Leber.
    #30Author ad.joe (236303) 04 Oct 12, 19:53
    Comment
    Ad "noch nie gehört", schau Dir mal die Parkscheine unserer Bundeshauptstadt genau an ...

    Und trotzdem: im österreichischen Rechtsbestand findet eine schnelle Suche das Wort Feber in 871, Februar aber in 2588 Dokumenten. Ich würde es zumindest als "schriftsprachlich, veraltend" bezeichnen.
    #31Author Carullus (670120) 04 Oct 12, 20:30
     
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