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  • Betrifft

    sorcerer or wizard

    Kommentar
    wo liegt der unterschied, wann wird was benutzt und welches wird eher verwendet?
    VerfasserSchuarb24 Feb. 06, 16:56
    Kommentar
    "wizard" comes from the word wise. (weise-D.)
    A wizard is somebody who is very wise and also has magic powers, due to his wisdom.
    examples:
    1) Gandolf in LOTR is a wizard. Gandolf has magic powers, but he is also very wise.
    2) In the Wizard of Oz, Dorothy and her friends go to see the Wizard because they want him to do magic for them. It turns out that the wizard actually has no magic powers, it is all a sham. But nevertheless, he is still able to help all of them because he is truly very wise.

    For a sourcerer, there is no such claim of wisdom. He purely does magic and, more than likely, only for his own personal gain. This is usually not a nice guy. But I wouldn't say he is necessarily evil.
    #1Verfasserwolf24 Feb. 06, 17:55
    Kommentar
    sorcerer/ sorceress wird u.a. in dem Kontext verwendet, wenn es um Hexenverbrennung auf Scheiterhaufen geht.
    #2Verfasserceri24 Feb. 06, 19:46
    Kommentar
    I disagree. The people throughout history accused of witchcraft and burned at the stake were called "witches", not sorcerers. At least in AE usage. They are called the Salem Witch Trials. The "Salem Sorcery Trials" sounds humorous at best.
    See Arthur Miller's The Crucible.
    The male counterpart to witch is warlock, but this word is seldom used in English.
    I don't know what the exact difference is between "sorcerer" and "witch". I suppose you would have to ask one. "Witch" sounds more evil to my ears.
    #3Verfasserwolf24 Feb. 06, 20:14
    Kommentar
    @wolf The "Salem Sorcery Trials" sounds humorous at best.
    But why? Maybe due to the fact that mainly women were burnt. Sad, but true....

    Apart from that, I support your first posting.


    #4Verfasserc.24 Feb. 06, 20:27
    Kommentar
    wizard = Zauberer (usually not evil)
    sorcerer = Hexer (usually evil)
    #5VerfasserRosentod24 Feb. 06, 20:29
    Kommentar
    @ Rosentod
    so what's the difference between wizard and magician in German?
    #6Verfasserbp24 Feb. 06, 20:46
    Kommentar
    @c. I never thought of it as a women's rights issue before. Thanks for enlightening me!
    #7Verfasserwolf24 Feb. 06, 20:49
    Kommentar
    @ bp
    In German, there's no difference between magician and wizard, ie. Zauberer is used for the wizard in a fantasy novel as well as for the guy who does tired old tricks on a stage.
    Many kids (used to?) have a "Zauberkasten" with trick cards etc.
    That's why in Fantasy games like D&D, wizard translates into "Magier".
    And sorcerer indeed into Hexer.

    German just has fewer words for it.
    English: wizard, sorcerer(ess), warlock, mage, witch, hag, (magician).
    German: Zauberer, Hexe(r), Hexenmeister, Magier (der "studierte" Zauberer).
    German and English myths of "Zauberer" are different, too.
    Btw, during the witch hunts, the word for a male witch was Hexenmeister, as it was assumed that the male witch was the master of the female witches.

    Hexe comes from old nordic hag(a)zussa, meaning "Zaunreiterin", and is connected to Hagebuche/Hainbuche (and thus to Frau Holle, who is connected to I forgot which Germanic Goddess... ah, Halbwissen, sorry, I don't really feel like researching it right now.)
    #8VerfasserAnja -- CL24 Feb. 06, 21:20
    Kommentar
    @ Anja
    thanx, very interesting!!!
    #9Verfasserbp24 Feb. 06, 21:28
    Kommentar
    @wolf: of course it was - well, not really a women's rights issue, but rather one involving hatred of women. Clerical misogyny and all that. Priests and monks were not allowed to marry, these frustrated men then cultivated a doctrine of misogyny, for which they found support in various biblical interpretations (Eve, the "temptress" causing the "downfall of Man", etc.). And if that were not enough, accuse women of being witches, and hence heretics, making them liable to be tortured and murdered in the name of religion (or to satisfy male misogynistic fantasies). There is a lot of literature on the subject.

    Re the original question: the word sorcerer originates from the French word for wizard/witch (sorcier/sorcière); that is why we have two words for almost the same thing. I would also tend to say that a sorcerer is only concerned with casting spells and studying magic formulae, and is possibly evil, or at least intimidating (think of "The Sorcerer's Apprentice"), whereas a wizard could be good or evil, but is also wise.
    However, a witch is not necessarily evil, either (White witches, Black witches...)

    A magician is simply someone who performs magic, but not one who mixes potions or throws newts and bats into a cauldron etc...
    A magician can also be a stage artist who pulls rabbits out of hats, etc.

    Though that is not to say that usage doesn't overlap sometimes.
    #10VerfasserMary (nz/A)24 Feb. 06, 21:32
    Kommentar
    @Mary:

    In Salem there were neither priests nor monks; it was a predominantly Protestant settlement.

    BTW, over the centuries there was more witch-burning in Protestant countries than in Catholic regions. And quite a lot of men were burnt, too; it was more an affair of greed for the possessions of the people that were burnt than of misogyny.
    #11VerfasserGrappa24 Feb. 06, 22:11
    Kommentar
    @Mary "However, a witch is not necessarily evil, either"

    I agree.
    I recall the popular American TV sitcom, "Bewitched", where all the witches (and warlocks) were portrayed neither good or evil, but rather human.
    #12Verfasserwolf24 Feb. 06, 22:24
    Kommentar
    Looking in a 1999n book of quotationaries under "witchcraft" I find:

    Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live -- Moses.

    I should have no compassion on these witches; I would burn all of them -- Martin Luther

    To disbelieve in witchcraft is the greatest of heresies. Heinrich Cramer und Jakob Sprenger in Malleus Maleficarum, 1486.

    All witchcraft comes from carnal lust, which is in women insatiable. ... Wherefore for the sake of fulfilling their lusts they consort even with devils. More such reasons could be brought forward, but to the understanding it is sufficiently clear that it is no wonder that there are more women than men found infected with the heresy of witchcraft. -- dito.

    Although fare more women are witches than men... yet men are more often bewitched than women -- dito.

    Another quote from the Maleficarum, but incidently, not one from Friedrich Spee's writings (who strongly opposed witch burnings and even dared to suggest that most of the women who burned weren't witches...)

    Btw, how can the great witch hunt be seen as something other than aggression directed at women? I remember a list on witches burned in Cologne, I don't recall the exact numbers, but I believe for women figures were 3 digits, for men 1.

    #13VerfasserAnja -- CL24 Feb. 06, 22:58
    Kommentar
    that should have been "Nor evil".

    But to get back to the original posters question, I think the issue of wisdom is the key difference in meaning btwn. "wizard" and "sorcerer". Strange that German has no way of making that distinction? Or am I mistaken?
    The reason that a sorcerer tends more to be evil is that he uses his magical powers purely for their own sake, or for his own gain. There is a principal of human nature that says "power corrupts", and so without great wisdom to guide him in the use of his powers, he usually becomes pretty vile. A wizard has great wisdom to balance this out and hence is more likely to be "good".
    A wizard also does not have to necessarily have magical powers. He could be like an oracle, perhaps with a crystal ball or some such device.
    #14Verfasserwolf24 Feb. 06, 23:07
    Kommentar
    I was referring to the European witch-hunts, anyway, which mainly took place in the Middle Ages and increased from the 14th to 16th centuries. The Salem witch-hunts were much later, in 1692 or thereabouts - thus after the misogynistic craze had died down in Europe.

    The link below terms it "female gendercide".

    http://www.gendercide.org/case_witchhunts.html

    For three centuries of early modern European history, diverse societies were consumed by a panic over alleged witches in their midst. Witch-hunts, especially in Central Europe, resulted in the trial, torture, and execution of tens of thousands of victims, about three-quarters of whom were women. Arguably, neither before nor since have adult European women been selectively targeted for such largescale atrocities.

    http://www.tangledmoon.org/witchhunt.htm

    Witchcraft cases increased slowly but steadily from the 14th-15th century. The first mass trials appeared in the 15th century. At the beginning of the 16th century, as the first shock-waves from the Reformation hit, the number of witch trials actually dropped. Then, around 1550, the persecution skyrocketed. What we think of as "the Burning Times" -- the crazes, panics, and mass hysteria -- largely occurred in one century, from 1550-1650. In the 17th century, the Great Hunt passed nearly as suddenly as it had arisen. Trials dropped sharply after 1650 and disappeared completely by the end of the 18th century.
    #15VerfasserMary (nz/A)24 Feb. 06, 23:14
    Kommentar
    @ wolf, if you want direct translation, it's a bit lopsided:

    sorceress -- Zauberin
    witch -- Hexe
    warlock -- Hexenmeister (evtl. auch Hexer)
    sorcerer -- Hexenmeister (but sometimes it's Zauberer)
    wizard -- Zauberer, Magier
    (female wizard) -- Magierin
    magician -- Zauberer
    hag -- Hexe (es gibt keine nichtmenschlichen Hexen in dt. Mythen/Sprache)

    Magier does not have to be wise, but learned. Ein Gelehrter. Studies loads of dusty tomes...
    #16VerfasserAnja -- CL24 Feb. 06, 23:34
    Kommentar
    P.S.

    related discussion

    There seems to be no easy translation for witch doctor either...
    #17VerfasserAnja -- CL24 Feb. 06, 23:41
    Kommentar
    I seem to remember that the witch burnings continued in Europe after they had stopped in America, at least the part of the continent that is now the US. According to a website from Breisach: "Vor dem alten Pfarrhaus stand bis 1675 ein großer Turm, in dem Frauen, die der Hexerei bezichtigt worden waren, bis zu ihrer Verbrennung auf dem Scheiterhaufen eingesperrt und gefoltert wurden. Der letzte schriftlich übermittelte Hexenprozess fand in Breisach im Jahr 1638 statt. In Europa fand die letzte Hexenverbrennung 1793 in Polen statt." http://www.adler-breisach.de/ah-breisach-sub-1.htm

    Another interesting site is http://www.virtualschool.edu/mon/SocialConstr...
    which says that the death penalty for witches was abolished in 1736 but that the last legal execution of a witch in Switzerland took place in 1782. It appears that only 40 witches were executed in the American colonies, the last one in 1710.

    In a book called "The Witchcraft of Salem Village" I find the following: "It is usual to think of women as witches and men as wizards. However, there is no sharp distinction, and the records show that the words were often used interchangeably." and later "...in 1604 [ ] the English Parliament under James passed a new act, making any practice of witchcraft punishable by death for a first offense. This law was in effect when the Puritans came to Massachusetts."

    @Anja--CL: Is there a difference between a "Zauberkasten" and a "Zaubertüte"? (Neither compound is in LEO.) I heard a really cute quote by an elderly woman on the topic of "Altsein" saying, "Solange man laufen kann und im Kopf nach klar ist, soll man immer wieder gucken,ob nicht doch noch irgendwo was in der Zaubertüte drin ist."
    #18VerfasserAmy-MiMi25 Feb. 06, 04:05
    Kommentar
    Sorry, the "death penalty for witches was abolished in England in 1736".
    #19VerfasserAmy-MiMi25 Feb. 06, 04:08
    Kommentar
    One more quick note, from Brad Cox's website http://www.virtualschool.edu/mon/SocialConstr...:
    "Ireland apparently escaped witch trials altogether."
    That's interesting. He says that 1,350 witches were killed in Scotland. Has anyone read an explanation of Ireland's resistance to the witch burning mania?
    #20VerfasserAmy-MiMi25 Feb. 06, 04:14
    Kommentar
    @Amy-MiMi: I hope it's okay when I try to answer your question :-)
    "Zauberkasten" means only this kit, usually for children or maybe the equipment of a magician in the David Copperfield-sense; a box which contains the requisites for a show. Whereas "Zaubertuete" has a more figurative meaning, it is more something which life/fate offers to you, but which you don't know about yet (there is an element of surprise to it). Btw, I love the story of the old lady!
    #21Verfassertalla25 Feb. 06, 10:04
    Kommentar
    @wolf:
    Gandalf, please. With two times an "a".

    Agree with Anja -- CL and her definitions and would like to add:
    necromancer - Totenbeschwörer; Zauberer "auf der dunklen Seite der Macht", i.d.R. böse
    #22Verfasserzatapathique <de F>25 Feb. 06, 14:54
    Kommentar
    Danke, talla.
    #23VerfasserAmy-MiMi26 Feb. 06, 13:32
    Kommentar
    @Amy

    I'm afraid you are mistaken in claiming that Ireland had escaped the witch trials completely; in fact, the earliest witch trial in the British Isles took place in Kilkenny, Ireland in 1324, when Bishop Ledrede accused Dame Alice Kyteler of witchcraft.

    Amongst other things she was accused of sweeping the dust of the roads at night and turning it into gold... She was duly found guilty and condemned to death, but on the morning of her execution she had "disappeared" from her cell.

    http://www.geocities.com/stevenedw/alicekytel... this gives quite a nice little account of it.
    #24VerfasserRichard28 Feb. 06, 01:19
    Kommentar
    But Richard, I didn't claim that, I was merely quoting Brad Cox. To be honest, I was skeptical that any European country "escaped witch trials altogether", which is why I asked if anyone had more information. Thanks for your link, by the way.
    #25VerfasserAmy-MiMi28 Feb. 06, 01:27
    Kommentar
    Interesting discussion. If I remember correctly, "Harry Potter and the sorcerer's stone" was translated into "Harry Potter und der Stein der Weisen".
    #26VerfasserSharon28 Feb. 06, 08:28
    Kommentar
    Wasn't the book called "Harry Potter and the philosopher's stone"?
    #27VerfasserLS28 Feb. 06, 08:35
    Kommentar
    @Sharon: "Harry Potter and the _Philosopher's_ Stone" was translated into "Harry Potter und der Stein der Weisen". Why was the American version called "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone"?
    #28Verfasserdirk28 Feb. 06, 08:44
    Kommentar
    @ Dirk: 'cause the publishers thought the Americans wouldn't know what a 'Philosopher's Stone is'.

    Prinzipiell möchte ich hier doch mal wieder den Ruf des Mittelalters verteidigen: Während es durchaus Hexenverbrennungen im MA gab, waren diese nicht sehr häufig und Einzelfälle. Bekanntestes Beispiel: Jeanne d'Arc aka Johanna v. Orleans. Im Mittelalter hat man vornehmlich 'Ketzer' (z.B. Jan Hus) verbrannt.

    Erst mit dem Ende des MA und dem Beginn der ach-so-aufgeklärten Renaissance (sagen wir mal grob Ende des 15. Jhd.) wurden Hexenverfolgungen ein weitverbreitetes Phänomen. Der 'Hexenhammer' (der bereits erwähnte Malleus Maleficarum) wurde 1486 veröffentlicht. Im Gegesatz zur landläufigen Meinung wurden viele Hexen/Hexer auch gehängt (s. Crucible) und nicht verbrannt. Zudem wurden auch sehr viele Männer hingerichtet, es war also nicht nur, aber sicher auch, ein Ausdruck von Frauenfeindlichkeit.
    #29VerfasserShura T. (DE)28 Feb. 06, 08:54
    Kommentar
    Most people would translate:

    Wizard = Zauberer
    Sorcerer = Hexenmeister.

    This is strange, like there is for sure a word-connection between Wizard and Witch (Hexe). So it should rather be vice versa.

    That the sorcerer is probably evil, seems to be very common, as well for me.

    I asked as well, which word is more used? Any idea?

    Another thing: Correct, in German there is definitely no possibility to distinguish between wizard an sorcerer.
    #30VerfasserSchuarb16 Mär. 06, 13:35
    Kommentar
    >This is strange, like there is for sure a word-connection between Wizard and Witch (Hexe).

    Sieht nicht so aus, siehe den Text aus den Etymologie-Links von LEO:

    wizard
    c.1440, "philosopher, sage," from M.E. wys "wise" (see wise (adj.)) + -ard. Cf. Lith. zynyste "magic," zynys "sorcerer," zyne "witch," all from zinoti "to know." The ground sense is perhaps "to know the future." The meaning "one with magical power" did not emerge distinctly until c.1550, the distinction between philosophy and magic being blurred in the Middle Ages. As a slang word meaning "excellent" it is recorded from 1922.



    witch
    O.E. wicce "female magician, sorceress," in later use esp. "a woman supposed to have dealings with the devil or evil spirits and to be able by their cooperation to perform supernatural acts," fem. of O.E. wicca "sorcerer, wizard, man who practices witchcraft or magic," from verb wiccian "to practice witchcraft" (cf. Low Ger. wikken, wicken "to use witchcraft," wikker, wicker "soothsayer"). OED says of uncertain origin. Klein suggests connection with O.E. wigle "divination," and wig, wih "idol." Watkins says the nouns represent a P.Gmc. *wikkjaz "necromancer" (one who wakes the dead), from PIE *weg-yo-, from *weg- "to be strong, be lively." That wicce once had a more specific sense than the later general one of "female magician, sorceress" perhaps is suggested by the presence of other words in O.E. describing more specific kinds of magical craft.
    #31VerfasserMattes16 Mär. 06, 15:41
    Kommentar
    It's not all that unusual that German makes no such distinction between Wizard and Sorceror. The two words in English are only another example of those innumerable French and Anglo-Saxon doublets.

    The first responder had it right when he said that the defining characteristic of a Wizard is Wisdom. To me, a Wizard represents something who is not necessarily magical, but is the sort of person who would be magical if such existed, e.g. a pinball wizard. A sorcerer, is by definition, magical, and this magic is dangerous and usually used unwisely, that is, the magical equivalent of a mad scientist.

    It's not as simple as saying which is used the most often (If I had to choose, I'd say wizard rolls off the tongue mroe easily, but sorceror is somewhat more emphatic). Most contexts distinguish the two terms on arbitrary criteria. In Dungeons and Dragons, for instance, Wizards are magic users who obtain their magic through knowledge, gained after birth, as secret formulas memorized and rituals invented, while sorcerors possess an inborn gift for magic, essentially through force of will. In Anthropology, the term Wizardry (or sometimes shamanism) has been usurped to refer to magic wielded by officials for concensual ends (which still may not necessarily be beneficial), while sorcery is magic essentially used illegally, like anarchist or terrorist magic.

    Overall, just keep in mind that "wizard" is more abstract and "sorceror" has a slightly negative sound. And you'd be best off avoiding words like "ensorcellments" and "abjuration" altogether.
    #32VerfasserWisdom19 Mär. 06, 11:36
    Kommentar
    A propos Harry Potter: Es scheint wirklich nicht so einfach, schließlich heißt die Schule "Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry"... und die Mädels werden dort eben zu witches und die Jungs zu wizards ausgebildet. :)
    #33Verfassertigger, leicht verwirrt19 Mär. 06, 11:44
    Kommentar
    To continue on the orignal question, really, the difference between Witch and Sorcerer originates as stated in the Anglo-Saxon / French mix that is modern english.

    In this case, as in most cases where there are two words with similar meanings in english where one is from the onld Anglo-Saxon or even Nordic origin, and the other word is from French, the French word was used primarily by the ruling class and the Saxon by the peasants and workers etc.

    This dichotomy of use based on social standing lead to the various "feelings" we have toward these words in english today.
    #34VerfasserIceWizard18 Apr. 07, 09:45
    Kommentar
    "BTW, over the centuries there was more witch-burning in Protestant countries than in Catholic regions. And quite a lot of men were burnt, too; it was more an affair of greed for the possessions of the people that were burnt than of misogyny."

    It's true that men were also persectued, but the overwhelming majority of victims were still women - most often women lacking the social protection of wealth and strong, influential family connections in the community. Greed was one motivation for denouncing someone as a witch, but revenge for slights and the desire to find a scapegoat for individual or communal misfortune were also very common.

    King James I of Scotland was quite worked up about witchcraft, and although he himself was Catholic, his views had a lot of influence in his Protestant lands.

    My modern Bible has "You shall not permit a sorceress to live" for Exodus 22:18, instead of the famous King James Version "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". I'm not entirely sure what's accomplished by that update, but then I don't read Greek or Hebrew.

    Another comparison - Exodus 7:11:
    Luther: Da forderte Pharao die Weisen und Zauberer; und die ägyptischen Zauberer taten auch also mit ihrem Beschwören:

    KJV: Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.

    On a sillier note, the witch/wizard thing in Harry Potter has always bugged me somehow. Witchcraft and wizardry - I know it all means the practice of magic, but to me it makes it sound like the male and female children aren't learning the same things. I suppose maybe it's all just sorcery in the French translation.
    #35VerfasserJones19 Apr. 07, 03:54
    Kommentar
    what about "conjurer" and "spellcaster"
    #36Verfassernone19 Apr. 07, 11:18
    Kommentar
    conjurer = Beschwörer
    summoner = Herbeirufer

    In der "Fantasy" (Literatur, Film, Rollenspiele etc.) ein Zauberer, der Wesen wie z. B. Dämonen beschwört/herbeiruft um mit deren Hilfe seine Ziele zu erreichen.
    #37VerfasserDesiderius19 Apr. 07, 12:44
    Kommentar
    I haven't read everything here but going back to the topic:

    refering to the comic "Order of the stick" the difference between wizard and sorcerer is, that the wizard has studied magic and the sorcerer is natural talented.
    #38Verfasserben23 Aug. 07, 09:56
    Kommentar
    A Thread-Necromancer! ;-)
    I like OotS very much but i don`t think it i would solve language-related problems with it! ;-)
    The source of both words is explained in this thread already so just read the rest, please!
    #39Verfasser Desiderius (326016) 23 Aug. 07, 10:25
     
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