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  • Übersicht

    Sprachlabor

    Genitiv im Englischen bei Namen auf -s

    Betrifft

    Genitiv im Englischen bei Namen auf -s

    Kommentar
    Hallo ihr,

    wie wird der Genitiv bei Namen auf -s im Englischen gebildet? Es gibt ja den St. James's Park in London, aber ich meine, in anderen Kontexten auch schon James' wie im Deutschen gelesen zu haben. Gibt es da eine Regel, hat sich der Sprachgebrauch da gewandelt oder ist das je nach Styleguide verschieden?

    Gruß JanZ
    Verfasser JanZ (805098) 14 Okt. 15, 15:57
    Kommentar
    It may depend on the individual style guide, but the rule familiar to me is that a name or word ending in "s" in the singular gets an apostrophe and an "s": James's books, e.g. If it's a plural genitive it only gets an apostrophe: the teachers' opinions clashed.
    #1Verfasser dude (253248) 14 Okt. 15, 16:00
    Kommentar
    Im Singular ist es meines Wissen immer 'Aprostroph S' - 'James'' habe ich noch nie gesehen.

    Was es natürlich gibt, ist der Genitiv im Plural - da steht dann nur das Apostroph:

    The ladies' laughter could be heard from miles away.
    #2Verfasser Gibson (418762) 14 Okt. 15, 16:02
    Kommentar
    I have seen both James's and James' plenty of times.
    #3Verfasser dude (253248) 14 Okt. 15, 16:03
    Kommentar
    Damit widersprichst du aber deiner #1, oder?

    (Wobei eine Regel natürlich sowieso nicht bedeutet, dass es nie vorkommt.)
    #4Verfasser Gibson (418762) 14 Okt. 15, 16:07
    Kommentar
    Why do I contradict my own rule? I said it's the one I'm familiar with and that this may well depend on individual style guides. No contradiction there, IMO.
    #5Verfasser dude (253248) 14 Okt. 15, 16:08
    Kommentar
    I was teaching this to my English class only last night.

    The textbooks still teach s's: St James's Park, Thomas's parents, Nicholas's books, and my example last night, Les's granddaughter (that's me). I think this is what you will almost always HEAR -- people will pronounce the second s even if they don't put it in the apostrophe in writing.

    The two common exceptions I can think of are Jesus and Moses -- in Jesus' name, amen.

    Edit, because extra posts appeared while I was writing. I think some examples of James' can be put down to apostrophe misuse and some to deliberate stylistic decisions. See article below. But I maintain that in 'normal' cases, such as common names like Thomas and James, you'll probably HEAR that second s.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-new...
    #6Verfasser papousek (343122) 14 Okt. 15, 16:11
    Kommentar
    I just thought it confusing that we completely agree - we both gave the same answer - but you still felt the need to point out that you'd seen 'James'' plenty of times. Which nobody had disputed. I only said that I hadn't seen it. I didn't (and still don't) quite see the point of #3.
    #7Verfasser Gibson (418762) 14 Okt. 15, 16:36
    Kommentar
    It's a style matter, but most style guides these days recommend 's after the existing s.
    #8Verfasser escoville (237761) 14 Okt. 15, 16:47
    Kommentar
    #9VerfasserSP (UK) (792698) 14 Okt. 15, 16:54
    Kommentar
    @Gibson: by saying I had seen plenty of instances of both versions, I just wanted to add emphasis to my point that it's probably a matter of style guide. In #3 I wanted to point out that, unlike you, I have seen both versions.
    #10Verfasser dude (253248) 14 Okt. 15, 16:57
    Kommentar
    It's both style and logic, because as papousek says, the 's is (or should be) pronounced even if it's not written, so after names ending in a sibilant, the rule is to write it. (Unlike in German.) I think most style guides for writers still maintain a strong consensus on that point. And there are plenty of threads in the archive where we've collected citations from them -- look for James's and Charles's, IIRC. They also make the point that the traditional exception has been classical and biblical names -- Socrates', Moses', etc.

    The one style guide that doesn't keep the 's, however, if I recall correctly, is AP (Associated Press) style, which is really unfortunate because virtually all US newspapers follow it. You can understand why they were tempted, because leaving that 's out saves a space, and in newspapers shorter is always better. But it has set a really bad example for the average person on the street, who has probably never heard of a style guide and assumes that whatever is in print must be correct. Or, like dude and the descriptivists, they just say 'I've seen both.' (Yep, I've seen both Voraus and Vorraus. True as far as it goes.)

    Also unfortunately, proper names that end in an S sound aren't at all uncommon -- so even Texas newspapers, for instance, incorrectly write Texas', which annoys me every time I see it.

    I don't know why copy editors never fought back, but apparently if they ever did, they lost that battle.
    #11Verfasser hm -- us (236141) 14 Okt. 15, 17:39
    Kommentar
    People just seem to have problems with apostrophes, and not just in English, hence all the Deppenapostrophe. Not everyone is a linguistic stickler or grammar nerd like a lot of LEOs, and by the time you get to have more than one Charles (for example) and then have to use the genitive thereof, most people will probably just say "screw it!" One Charles's reign? Two Charleses' reigns? Fuggedaboutit!
    #12Verfasser dude (253248) 14 Okt. 15, 18:01
    Kommentar
    (-:

    Too true.
    #13Verfasser hm -- us (236141) 14 Okt. 15, 18:48
    Kommentar
    Ich habe meine Doktorarbeit über John Rawls geschrieben. In der englischsprachigen Literatur findet sich beides sehr häufig, Rawls's und Rawls', in AE und BE gleichermaßen. Somit ist es Geschmackssache des Autors bzw. der Redaktion einer Zeitschrift. (Ich persönlich ziehe Rawls's vor, um des Genitivs Funktion zu betonen..)
    #14Verfasser mbshu (874725) 14 Okt. 15, 19:15
     
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