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    City break - any tips?

    Kommentar
    As you had such brilliant ideas about London, I'd like to ask for your recommendations again. It's a bit different this time because I don't know what city to go to. I'd like to see something of what I'd call 'The North' and people there probably call something totally different. We're thinking about Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds or even Newcastle (that's proper 'north' I guess). Again, we're only going for a long weekend. I'm not really looking for anything in particular, I've just never been in that area (apart from York for a day, once, on my way to Scotland) and my main association are The Smiths, who I loved as a teenager :)
    So where would you go? What would you recommend?
    VerfasserGibson (418762) 29 Mär. 17, 20:34
    Kommentar
    Durham!
    #1VerfasserKinkyAfro (587241) 30 Mär. 17, 00:22
    Kommentar
    Abgesehen von Durham kenne ich in der Gegend nicht viel - also eigentlich nichts. Aber Durham hat mir gut gefallen.
    #2VerfasserSelima (107) 30 Mär. 17, 06:50
    Kommentar
    Durham und Newcastle kenne ich nur vom Vorbeifahren im Zug; in Leeds haben wir mal einen Tag verbracht und fanden es schön (Museen! z.B. Hepworth), in Manchester auch und fanden es enttäuschend, wie eine Stadt aus der Retorte oder dem Fernsehstudio.

    Ich würde Liverpool empfehlen.
    Beeindruckende Architektur, zwei tolle und sehr unterschiedliche Kathedralen, wiederum Museen (Kunst - oder das Museum of Liverpool), ein chinesisches Viertel, die Beatles - eine sehr lebendige Stadt.
    Wir waren auch in Crosby Beach, um uns Another Place anzusehen, die Strandskulpturen von Antony Gormley, aber das muss ja nicht unbedingt euer Ding sein.
    #3Verfasserpenguin (236245) 30 Mär. 17, 07:33
    Kommentar
    Wenn ihr nicht unbedingt das gesamte lange Wochenende in der Stadt bleiben wollt bzw. müsst, bietet sich auch Leeds an. Wenn man sich die Stadt angesehen hat, kann man von dort aus man gut Abstecher ins Umland machen (mit Zug oder Auto). Die Yorkshire Dales liegen da direkt vor der Haustür, z.B. mit Saltaire (Weltkulturerbe) und Skipton in der Verlängerung. Oder etwas in die andere Richtung Harrogate und Knaresborough.
    #4VerfasserR-e-v-e-n-a-n-t (1096791) 30 Mär. 17, 07:51
    Kommentar
    ich habe kürzlich Newcastle als "das Köln Englands" beschrieben gesehen, das fand ich interessant... :-)
    Ein Fluss, lustiger Dialekt, spezielles Bier, irgendwie so war die Logik. Der dazugehörige Artikel hat die Stadt für mich interessant genug beschrieben, dass ich da auch mal hinfahren möchte, nachdem ich da über Jahre hinweg immer nur durchgefahren bin, auf dem Weg nach Schottland. Und dann gibt es auch noch Direktflüge von Köln...

    #5VerfasserSpinatwachtel (341764) 30 Mär. 17, 08:19
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    Ja, von Newcastle hört man auch viel Gutes!
    #6VerfasserR-e-v-e-n-a-n-t (1096791) 30 Mär. 17, 08:52
    Kommentar
    Ich werf mal Sheffield und die Peaks in die Runde. Auch wenn das weniger "City" und mehr "country" ist.

    *sehnsuchthab*
    #7VerfasserB.L.Z. Bubb (601295) 30 Mär. 17, 09:07
    Kommentar
    ich habe kürzlich Newcastle als "das Köln Englands" beschrieben gesehen

    Even has its 'schäl Sick' -- Gateshead.

    My knowledge of Newcastle is purely nocturnal. Having been thrown out of the station at midnight by a policeman, I walked to the sea (13 km), and saw the sun rise. (You can't do that in Cologne.)
    #8Verfasserescoville (237761) 30 Mär. 17, 09:36
    Kommentar
    Vielen Dank. Ich würde ja gerne für einen Nachmittag ans Meer oder in die Dales oder Moores, aber wenn wir fliegen (was bei der Entfernung wahrscheinlich ist), ist das vermutlich nicht so einfach*. Dann vielleicht doch Liverpool? penguin klingt ja begeistert. Wir gehen mal in uns, aber das war schon mal sehr unterhaltsam ;-)

    (*da würde ich escoville eher nicht als Vorbild nehmen und zu Fuß gehen...)
    #9VerfasserGibson (418762) 30 Mär. 17, 22:04
    Kommentar
    Man kann auch nach Crosby fahren, um am (riesigen!) Strand zu laufen, Gormley ist dann praktisch eine Zugabe :-) Das geht mit dem Zug und dauert keine halbe Stunde. Ein absolut magischer Ort.

    Aber im Ernst - die 100 Figuren sind eine beeindruckende Kulisse. Such mal Bilder im Internet, jeder macht Fotos, absolut zu Recht. Und ja, wir waren von Liverpool absolut überrascht und total begeistert.


    PS: Gormley findet sich sogar im Neandertal: http://www.mettmann.de/menschenspuren/being.php
    #10Verfasserpenguin (236245) 30 Mär. 17, 22:29
    Kommentar
    OT - I have been to the beach at Crosby, there are usually a couple of ice-cream vans on the seafront with their diesel engines permanently running.
    Still OT - Really I meant to leave a comment about Gormley. The idea could be a good one, what shocked me and made the sculptures quite repugnant for me was the fact that they are casts of the sculptor himself. So ein Selbstdarsteller - all kinds of messages would have been possible if the job had been given to a less self-indulgent artist.

    But to get back on topic : The question is whether you want preindustrial (York, Durham) or industrial (Leeds, Manchester) cities. Leeds has the best covered market in England, if you like that kind of thing. Or if you prefer the countryside - the Yorkshire Moors and Dales, for example.
    I have for a long time wanted to return to Yorkshire, not least to revisit the ruined abbeys - Fountains, Rievaulx, Whitby, and the lesser known ones such as Byland - relics of an earlier English self-immolation.
    #11Verfasserisabelll (918354) 31 Mär. 17, 17:50
    Kommentar
    there are usually a couple of ice-cream vans on the seafront
    Not when we were there (during the week in May).

    repugnant for me was the fact that they are casts of the sculptor himself
    They are works of art, and impressive ones at that. Who should he cast instead - a stranger?
    #12Verfasserpenguin (236245) 31 Mär. 17, 18:42
    Kommentar
    #12 Still OT : So what? Well, for me it is an indication on the one hand of a rather unappetising egotism (I am repeating myself), and on the other of a poverty of imagination (again, I said this before).
    Penguin, you have more creativity than he does: the idea of making casts of strangers, of the unknown, is a great idea and would be really rather challenging and thought-provoking.
    The man clearly has a skill in marketing, because he has made a name for himself, but how sad that he did not have the creativity to use this skill to communicate something of value, instead of just me me me me. The idea of the forest of objects sinking into the sand is one of genius, and of course the ability to sell such an idea to a local authority shows dynamism, but so disappointing that the execution is so paltry. There are so many objects he could have installed in the sand, which could have induced the onlooker to reflect on something (life, the universe, and everything) ... on something other than the self-absorbtion and self-indulgence of the sculptor. I read somewhere some years ago that he has plonked some further monuments to himself in the Swiss Alps, I think. From the aspect of imagination and creativity (the absence thereof) it reminds me of the wrapping projects of Christo.
    Sorry to go on about this, but you did ask. Schönes Wochenende ;-)
    #13Verfasserisabelll (918354) 01 Apr. 17, 13:06
    Kommentar
    Ich kann an Selbstportraits überhaut nichts Unappetitliches finden - zumindest nicht generell. Das sind Selbstreflektionen - und wenn jemand nicht gerade ein Narzist ist, kann das hochspannend sein und außerdem wesentlich gesünder als Selbstverleugnung oder Selbsthaß.

    Ansonsten kann man über Kunst nicht streiten, finde ich, schon gar nicht über Sinn oder Wert (als Kunstwerk, nicht materiell). Es gibt nur eine valide Wertung - meiner Ansicht nach - gefällt _mir_ oder gefällt _mir_ nicht.
    #14VerfasserSelima (107) 01 Apr. 17, 13:25
    Kommentar
    Immerhin hat die Diskussion dazu geführt, dass ich die Dinger jetzt sehen will :) Liverpool it is. Thank you, everybody.
    #15VerfasserGibson (418762) 01 Apr. 17, 13:47
    Kommentar
    that he has plonked some further monuments to himself in the Swiss Alps

    That was in Austria - "Horizon Field" near Bregenz, a non-permanent installation he planned together with Kunsthaus Bregenz. It brought many tourists to the region.

    In 2015 he had another installation, invited by the City of Florence: his project Human in Florence's Forte di Belvedere high above the city.

    In my view Gormley is among the greatest living artists, but of course we don't need to agree on that. Have you been to see his Angel of the North, by any chance?
    #16Verfasserpenguin (236245) 01 Apr. 17, 13:47
    Kommentar
    Have you been to see his Angel of the North, by any chance?

    That is one of those artworks which millions have seen, but few have 'been to see'.

    Self-portraits are cheaper. You don't have to pay a model. Often it's as simple as that.
    #17Verfasserescoville (237761) 02 Apr. 17, 11:30
    Kommentar
    The sheer scale of the Angel of the North is simply breathtaking.
    #18Verfasserpenguin (236245) 02 Apr. 17, 11:38
    Kommentar
    #15 - Well, I am glad that Gibson is going to have a look. The Crosby statues are certainly worth seeing, I quite agree with that, even if I see the result as a verpasste Chance. Perhaps you can report back, adjudicating on the difference of judgement between Penguin and me? I'd be curious to know.
    And if you take the train to Crosby (it's the milk train to Southport, I think), then after seeing the Gormley things, it is worth taking the train on to Formby, which has a much nicer beach - irrespective of any sculptures ;-)
    #19Verfasserisabelll (918354) 05 Apr. 17, 22:12
    Kommentar
    #17 - No, I've only seen the angel in pics, not been there since it was erected. I am sure it is impressive. I read somewhere that it was a real engineering challenge: Gormley had not taken into account the wind stress on the structure, arms like sails on thin legs/ankles. He evidently is not a proponent of the aesthetic principle "form follows function" ...
    #20Verfasserisabelll (918354) 05 Apr. 17, 22:23
    Kommentar
    Warst du schon?
    Ansonsten noch als Zeitvertreibtip: Tate hat eine Ausstellung Portraying a nation mit Bildern von Otto Dix and Fotos von August Sander zur Weimarer Republik
    #21VerfasserDixie (426973) 01 Jul. 17, 14:28
    Kommentar
    I've just come back and wanted to quickly comment on "Another Place".
    I thought it was very impressive and liked it a lot. I wasn't bothered by the fact that they all look the same, because they don't - depending on how much water they've been exposed to, some of them are only vaguely human now; two arms, two legs, one head. The rest is covered in barnacles. Some are rusting quietly, some have been dressed*, some look quite pristine. So I think it made sense to start out with the same forms. It makes the changes more interesting, in my opinion, than they would have been had the sculptures been different from the beginning.
    I'm not sure I would have recognised them as Gormley (I've only seen a couple of photos of the real artist) - they look quite generic to me. Clearly a man ;-) but nobody I could have picked out in a line-up, so I didn't get the impression of a big ego either, especially considering that they'll weather more and more. I think, apart from what I said above - that the changes are more pronounced if you start from the same form - that escoville is right and it was simply much cheaper. Not so much because you don't have to pay a model but because you only need one cast.

    We went twice, first at low tide, then had lunch and a long walk somewhere and then came back at high tide, which turned out to have been a really good idea. It was completely different the second time.

    So I'd definitely recommend it. I could have sat there, looked at them and watched the waves and the changing tides for hours.

    * I think it's wonderful that "they" (whoever it is that could do something about it) didn't remove the occasional items of clothing people have put on the statues (not many; maybe ten out of the hundred, and two had smiles drawn on). I wouldn't like it if all, or even a bigger part of them, had been tampered with, but I think open-air art should invite a certain amount of interaction and not be sterile.

    ---
    On a more general note, Liverpool was really great (I actually prefer it to London last year). Super friendly people, lots to see and I just really liked the atmosphere.
    #22VerfasserGibson (418762) 15 Aug. 17, 21:03
    Kommentar
    #23Verfasserisabelll (918354) 16 Aug. 17, 02:34
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    Thank you. I agree that painting them is vandalism. I didn't see any of that (and I think we saw most, so that must been removed).
    #24VerfasserGibson (418762) 16 Aug. 17, 08:12
    Kommentar
    If anyone is going to London still, I offer another tip for a sunny afternoon (or morning, allow about 3-4 hours). Your destination is Chiswick House, the most archetypal Palladian (or neo-Palladian) house outside Italy. To get there, take the tube to Hammersmith, and walk to Hammersmith Bridge (but don't cross it). Walk stadtauswärts (as they say, i.e. west) along the river, which is a nice walk, for about a mile, passing the island known as Chiswick Eyot (William Morris was very familiar with this walk). When you come to the stretch known as Corney Reach (recently developed with neo-Georgian houses) watch out for a landing stage called Chiswick Pier. Then turn away from the river and find your way to Corney Rd. (only about 100 m, but a bit complicated, ask a local). Walk up Corney Rd (passing a house which my parents bought in 1970 for 4000 GBP, one half of which sold in 2015 for 650,000) till you come to the main road. Cross and go through the fairly obvious gate. The house itself is open somewhat sporadically, but there's not much inside. Enjoy the extensive grounds (and the new good café). If you're an aeroplane spotter, you will also like the place. This was one of my frequent haunts as a child, but I've recently rediscovered it.
    #25Verfasserescoville (237761) 17 Aug. 17, 11:14
    Kommentar
    Oh, Gibson, I should not have returned to this thread ...
    I was hesitant to write again, given that the English-language side of Leo is now in turmoil ... for one should not try to have the last word, one should not continue doggedly on threads until Doris draws down the shutters, one should accept that others simply have a different judgment and sometimes that must be that. Trotz all dem kann ich es mir nicht verkneifen ...
    I was really puzzled that you called it "vandalism". Interestingly, the Guardian has changed the picture since I posted the link. It no longer shows the "pink bikini", probably because of the genitals (shock horror). So here is an unbowdlerised link: http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-40...
    At a prosaic level the paint does no lasting damage to the original, indeed protects it, until it is washed off by the elements (or by the Council). And from an aesthetic persepctive, I was fascinated by the outrageousness and incongruity of the pink bikini on the figure, especially painting the bikini over the statue's cock! That detail made me think again : until now I had been blustering about the self-adulation of this man (what is the English for Selbstdarsteller?) who was distributing replicas of himself around the world (not just Crosby). But this obsession of mine had blinded me to a deeper question - why the fuck is this beach populated just with figures of men? Painting a bikini over the cock opened my eyes a little.
    #26Verfasserisabelll (918354) 18 Aug. 17, 23:48
    Kommentar
    I don't know what you're on about in your first paragraph and I would prefer it if you didn't randomly swear in a thread where you wouldn't expect the F-word. I do swear quite a lot in my private life but this is different IMO.

    As to why I called it vandalism: because judging from the (now apparently changed, I didn't click on the link again) picture it didn't look like paint that would wash off but like something permanent. Clothes you can take off. Lackfarbe you can't, easily.
    I also, but that is incidental because it's so subjective, found the pink polka-dot bikini garish, immature and ugly. The statue just looked stupid and I didn't like it. Not everything needs to be turned into a cheap joke.

    As to why there are no women: because there's only one cast (cheap!) and the artist happened to be a man. Nothing keeps a woman from using herself as a model in her work, and many do. In this case, Gormely had the idea fist and he's a man. I have no problem with that. (If there had been a hundred different statues and all of them men, that would have bothered me. But with only one it obviously has to be one or the other.)
    #27VerfasserGibson (418762) 19 Aug. 17, 00:38
     
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