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  • Betrifft

    origin of 'zilch'

    Kommentar
    Does anyone know which language the word 'zilch' comes from? It looks a bit German but there aren't any entries in the German dictonary, only the English.
    Verfassernutty16 Okt. 03, 18:36
    Kommentar
    is it a (your?) name? Does not seem to be an usual german word.
    #1VerfasserMarianne16 Okt. 03, 18:41
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    #2VerfasserMarianne16 Okt. 03, 18:46
    Kommentar
    #3VerfasserNancy16 Okt. 03, 18:49
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    I've got a faint feeling that the word "zilch" (meaning "nothing" as far as I know) is of yiddish origin - but I'm not sure.
    #4VerfasserWolfman16 Okt. 03, 21:21
    Kommentar
    Where did you find/see it? Sounds like the name of an animal to me, a specification perhaps.
    #5Verfasserdagmar17 Okt. 03, 12:17
    Kommentar
    I don't know where Nutty has it from but right now a local radio station in London runs a commercial for blueyonder broadband cable. And its about "paying zilch" for being connected to cable.
    "Zilch" is at least mentioned 10 times.
    I havn't heard it before.
    #6Verfassermonika17 Okt. 03, 16:06
    Kommentar
    It's a perfectly common colloquial word for (as LEO says) "gar nichts, null," originally AE. Not a familiar proper name that I've ever heard, though Nancy's link above, which is the most comprehensive treatment I've seen (but has no answer), mentions a couple of proper names that may have played a role.

    The M-W/OED date of 1966 for first recorded use seems surprisingly late. I would certainly have guessed Yiddish too.

    Last hopes: someone willing to look for a plausible ancestor in a good German historical and or etymological dictionary; or someone with a good Yiddish/German or Yiddish/English dictionary; or someone who recognizes it from another language. But I imagine the OED has already tried all those.
    #7Verfasserhm -- us17 Okt. 03, 17:14
    Kommentar
    "nothing," 1966, from earlier sense of "meaningless speech" (1960), originally Mr. Zilch, (1931) comic character in the magazine "Ballyhoo." Perhaps from U.S. college slang (early 1900s) Joe Zilsch "an insignificant person."
    #8VerfasserPeter <us>18 Okt. 03, 09:16
    Kommentar
    Hi, Peter. It might help to mention that the source of your information was (apparently) the same link Nancy had already given. But the point as I understood it was that the writer of the article felt that was an incomplete explanation -- thought the humorous last names probably didn't arise ex nihilo, but was unable to trace the word any farther back.
    #9Verfasserhm -- us18 Okt. 03, 16:46
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    OED has nothing earlier than the 1931 Ballyhoo reference . . .
    #10VerfasserMissGrundy18 Okt. 03, 19:56
    Kommentar
    @Marianne. In case you haven't mistyped 'It is not 'an' usual German word' is incorrect. The rule is not 'an' before a vowel, but 'an' before a vowel sound. Usual begins with a vowel but not a vowel sound (yuseual) and so takes 'a' not'an' Some words(mainly us... and ut...) beginning with U do not begin with a vowel sound and do not take 'an'.
    #11VerfasserJGMcI18 Okt. 03, 22:59
    Kommentar
    hm--forgot to "Ctrl-V" on that one--I apologize for the omission. The source was http://www.etymonline.com/z1etym.htm
    #12VerfasserPeter <us>19 Okt. 03, 08:42
    Kommentar
    Ich weiß nicht, ob hier überhaupt irgendein Zusammenhang besteht, aber 'Zilk' mit K ist in Österreich ein gebräuchlicher Familienname. Leider kann ich nicht sagen, aus welchem Sprachraum er kommt und ob der Name selbst eine Bedeutung hat.
    #13Verfasserminjong19 Okt. 03, 09:14
    Kommentar
    Webster's New World College Dictionary:
    zilch
    |n.| [[nonsense syllable, orig. used in the 1930s as name of a character in the magazine Ballyhoo]] [Slang] nothing; zero

    American Slang, 2nd Edition by Robert L. Chapman, Ph.D.:
    zilch
    1. |n| by 1960s nothing; zero; =ZIP: The city... has turned its smaller islnads into zilch -New York Magazine/ ... got the jeep for practically zilch -George V Higgins
    2. |modifier| York has close to zilch industry -Toronto Life
    3. |v| |sports by 1960s| To hold an opponent scoreless; =BLANK, SKUNK
    4. |n| |teenagers by 1970s| =STORCH
    5. |n| |teenagers by 1970s| A minor skin lesion; =ZIT
    [probably fr zero, and like zip, primarily a variant coined form a familiar word beginning with z; notice, in this regard, how zilch has become a variant of zit; in British use, but not US, zilch might be reinforced by nil, "zero"; all senses may derive fr the early-1900s US college use Joe Zilsch, "any insignificant person," popularized during the 1930s by ubiquitous use in the humor magazine Ballyhoo with the spelling Zilch, an actual German surname of slavic origin] |See JOE BLOW, NOT KNOW BEANS|

    storch |by 1960s]
    1. |n| An easy victim; dupe; =MARK, PATSY
    2. |n| An ordinary person; =GUY, JOE

    Everbody got it? ;)
    #14VerfasserJanno19 Okt. 03, 12:51
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    #15VerfasserJanno19 Okt. 03, 18:44
    Kommentar
    In: Hans Bahlow, Deutsches Namenlexikon, I found

    Zilg (Zilch), Zilg(n)er: Metr., Sohn (oder Gatte) der Cäcilie


    Metr.=Metronym = middle name, son (or spouse) of Cäcilie
    #16Verfasserdagmar22 Okt. 03, 11:49
    Kommentar
    New York Governour used it in a press conference and told that it is a NYC term.(26.03.2020 German time 17:20 on CNN)

    I think original by german settlers in the centuries before
    Not in use in Germany and not known.
    #17Verfasser Expressionist (1297768) 27 Mär. 20, 17:27
    Kommentar

    Here's what the Online Etymological Dictionary says. (That website is my go-to source for etymologies and explanations.)


    https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=zilch


    Google's Ngram Viewer shows how the usage frequency has increased from 1960.


    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content...



    #18Verfasser eric (new york) (63613) 29 Mär. 20, 17:19
    Kommentar

    https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=zilch

    "zilch (n.)

    "nothing," 1957; "insignificant person," 1933, from use of Zilch as a generic comical-sounding surname for an insignificant person (especially Joe Zilch). There was a Mr. Zilch (1931), comic character in the magazine "Ballyhoo," and the use perhaps originated c. 1922 in U.S. college or theater slang. Probably a nonsense syllable, suggestive of the end of the alphabet, but Zilch is an actual German surname of Slavic origin."

    #19Verfasser Nirak (264416) 29 Mär. 20, 18:49
    Kommentar

    #19


    Hans Bahlow, Deutsches Namenslexikon, ist nicht der Meinung von etymonline, dass der deutsche Familienname "Zilch" slawischen Ursprungs sei. Nach Bahlow, ist "Zilch/Zilg" ein Metronym für "Sohn/Gatte der Cäcilie". (Kurzformen von "Cäcilie" sind "Silke, Cilly, Zilly" u.ä.)

    #20Verfasser MiMo (236780) 30 Mär. 20, 05:59
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    Jedenfalls ist Zilch ein so seltener Nachname in Deutschland, daß ich ihn nicht einmal sofort als deutschen erkennen würde.

    #21Verfasser mbshu (874725) 30 Mär. 20, 08:10
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    Herr Josef Zilch war mein Musiklehrer und unser Schulchorleiter. :)

    #22VerfasserEpilog (1297382)  30 Mär. 20, 08:38
    Kommentar

    Aus dem Link in #15 (wow, der funzt noch ! ) :


    Zilch


    Q From Bill Penn: My source books give me a totally unsatisfactory background on the word zilch. (Please note I resisted saying the books gave me zilch on zilch.) Can you help?


    A There goes a chance for a pun. Spoilsport ...


    You’re right that dictionaries are almost uniformly cautious about the origin of this word, which means “nothing; zero”. It appears first in print in the mid 1960s (the first example in the big Oxford English Dictionary is from a slang collection at the University of South Dakota dated Winter 1966).


    Some reference books suggest the Ballyhoo humour magazine, first published in 1931, was a possible source. This had as one of its characters a Mr Zilch (actually there were several of them: the front page of the first issue advertised “President Henry P. Zilch. Chairman of the Board Charles D. Zilch. Treasurer Otto Zilch”). The character was not actually pictured in cartoons in the magazine, but was obviously present, so he was “the little man who wasn’t there”.


    This name may have come from college slang of the 1920s, in which Joe Zilsch was the archetypal average student — the average Joe, in fact, marching in the same column as Joe Blow, Joe Doakes and the more recent Joe Sixpack. That sense is still around and sometimes used in the same way as John Doe, to refer to an individual who is otherwise unidentified. In the 1920s, however, Joe Zilsch could also be an insignificant person or (in modern terms) a loser. The spelling suggests a European origin (and Zilsch is a real German surname of Slavic origin). The name was probably borrowed with zero and nil in the back of the creator’s mind.


    But the years between the 1930s and the 1960s are a complete blank as far as the development of the word is concerned, so we have no way of confirming that this is the source. Indeed, the long gap might be indirect evidence that it isn’t. Alas, etymology is not an exact science, so this is yet another occasion on which I just have to say “Origin unknown”.


    #23Verfasser no me bré (700807) 30 Mär. 20, 11:12
    Kommentar

    #21


    Diesen 'seltenen' deutschen Familiennamen tragen immerhin 7 Persönlichkeiten, die Wikipedia aufführt.

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zilch

    #24Verfasser MiMo (236780) 30 Mär. 20, 13:19
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    Ich hätte spontan auf eine Gestalt von Dr Seuss getippt ...

    #25Verfasser Raudona (255425) 30 Mär. 20, 14:21
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    #21: Ging mir auch so. Mir ist halt noch niemand mit dem Namen über den Weg gelaufen. Ich bin halt nicht in Aschaffenburg zur Schule gegangen und kenne auch nicht die Wikipedia auswendig ;-).

    #26Verfasser JanZ (805098) 30 Mär. 20, 15:54
    Kommentar
    There has recently been progress in identifying the origin of "zilch" meaning zero. It comes ultimately from the name of the husband of a Vaudeville dancer named Ida May Chadwick. A comedian used her husband's name, Joseph Zilch, in his act.

    I posted my findings on my blog.

    https://esnpc.blogspot.com/2021/08/frank-tinn...

    Nancy Friedman posted a good summary of my findings on her blog.

    https://nancyfriedman.typepad.com/away_with_w...

    As for the name, in several families named Zilch in the 1880 census, nearly all of them were listed as being born (or their parents born) in Germany, Prussia, or Baden. A couple were born in France.
    #27Verfasser svaihingen (705121) 05 Sep. 21, 22:11
     
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