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  • Betrifft

    a/an LSP

    Kommentar
    ...when a LSP (Logistic Service Provider) started delivery...

    heißt es "a" oder "an" LSP?
    Verfasserdominik2012 Mär. 08, 00:27
    Kommentar
    An el-es-pee.
    #1VerfasserJo UK (412035) 12 Mär. 08, 00:51
    Kommentar
    The rule is basically, when you expect that the reader is so familiar with the acronym that he/she automatically "translates" it in his head to the "full" version, then the indefinite article adapts to the "extended" version - here "a logistic service provider".

    If, on the other hand, you expect that the reader will read the acronym simply as a succession of letters, then you must adapt the indefinte article to the pronunciation of the leading letter - in this case "an LSP".
    #2VerfasserRMA (UK) (394831) 12 Mär. 08, 00:57
    Kommentar
    RMA, I'm curious, what would be an example of the first type?
    #3VerfasserJo UK (412035) 12 Mär. 08, 01:03
     Beitrag #4­ wurde gelöscht.
    Kommentar
    @Jo UK, I must admit, I can't think of a convincing example offhand, and, in fact, it may well be that we're so used to drowning in acronyms nowadays that people no longer "automatically translate" the acronym back to the full text. That doesn't affect the validity of the rule,, though, it just means that the second part will usually apply.

    That just leaves me with the problem of finding an acronym which would take "a", since virtually everything that pops into my head would need "an".

    Thanks to Wiki a couple of examples - "a CD-ROM", "a JPEG file/picture".
    #5VerfasserRMA (UK) (394831) 12 Mär. 08, 09:36
     Beitrag #6­ wurde gelöscht.
    Kommentar
    I'm on a mailing list for bilingual families which uses certain short forms such as "ml" for "minority language", and in that case I do sometimes waver between using "an ml" or "a ml", as I tend to read it as "minority language", not as an initialism - but I'd say this is more the exception. In the vast majority of cases, we say the initials and not the words they stand for.
    #7Verfasser CM2DD (236324) 12 Mär. 08, 09:42
    Kommentar
    Mind you, not sure if "ml" really counts, as it isn't a proper initialism, more a form of shorthand ...
    #8Verfasser CM2DD (236324) 12 Mär. 08, 09:45
    Kommentar
    I once asked here if it should be "a SAP licence" or "an SAP licence". Most answers suggested it should be "an SAP licence". So, as that was my sentiment exactly, that is what I wrote to my colleague in UK. I was slightly surprised when his answer contained only "a SAP licence". Since then I have had correspondence with other native BE speakers, and almost all of them wrote "a SAP licence".

    Since then I try to "read" acronyms as a word. If it sounds feasible, then a word it is and I use a/an accordingly.

    #9Verfasseralpha12 Mär. 08, 09:52
    Kommentar
    SAP is one of those words which you could either pronounce as a word or as initials ("sap" or "ess-ay-pee").

    Google results:

    8 from sap.com for "a sap license"
    2,270 from sap.com for "an sap license".

    ... suggesting that SAP's preference is to say it "ess-ay-pee".
    #10Verfasser CM2DD (236324) 12 Mär. 08, 09:58
    Kommentar
    CM2DD: Quite - but not everyone uses it that way. Which is why I was surprised at the answer(s) I received, and RMA's "rule" is not always reliable.
    #11Verfasseralpha12 Mär. 08, 10:00
    Kommentar
    Hmm.. would that be 'are-em-a', if it were some sort of acronym, and thus an RMA.
    #12VerfasserAurélien (417676) 12 Mär. 08, 10:20
    Kommentar
    @sammyd, just to clear the point up, were you busy typing what became post #6 before I had posted #5, or did I somehow not express myself clearly enough in post #5?
    #13VerfasserRMA (UK) (394831) 12 Mär. 08, 12:29
    Kommentar
    #13 - I also initially read the example "a CD-ROM" as an example of your rule "when you expect that the reader is so familiar with the acronym that he/she automatically "translates" it in his head to the "full" version, then the indefinite article adapts to the "extended" version". Actually, I'm still not sure why you provided an example of an initialism taking "a".
    #14Verfasser CM2DD (236324) 12 Mär. 08, 12:36
    Kommentar
    #3

    SCSI (Scasi) and SQL (sequel) might be examples.
    #15VerfasserMikeE (236602) 12 Mär. 08, 23:33
    Kommentar
    @CM2DD, hmm, I'm obviously having trouble expressing myself clearly, or else I've not taken account of how different people see things.

    Actually, now I'm a bit puzzled as to what exactly you mean. I initially assumed that you meant that you automatically translated "CD-ROM" to "Compact disc ...", but both would then require "a" before them.

    Sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say.

    By the way, I'm very near to starting a thread on aggressive responses on LEO. Should you first view this post after I've started that thread, please note your post #14 is not meant as an example!
    #16VerfasserRMA (UK) (394831) 13 Mär. 08, 00:32
    Kommentar
    @MikeE, actually you've spotted a hole in my argument. I hadn't considered the case where the acronym had become so commonplace that it had come to be treated as a word itself, which is the case for the two examples that you mention.

    As I suggested in post #5, I suspect the situation has changed over the last twenty or thirty years and it it is now no longer normal to mentally "translate" acronyms back to their full equivalents, as was the case then.
    #17VerfasserRMA (UK) (394831) 13 Mär. 08, 00:40
    Kommentar
    I write/say "an SAP license" :-)
    #18Verfasser Carly-AE (237428) 13 Mär. 08, 01:03
    Kommentar
    Hit "Send" too quickly - ...since "sap" is what trickles out of trees :-)
    #19Verfasser Carly-AE (237428) 13 Mär. 08, 01:04
    Kommentar
    Hope this is not too complicated to express, if so it is entirely my own bad phrasing!

    RMA - my post #14 was to try to answer your question in #13. You asked sammyd if he hadn't understood what you said in #5. I was pointing out that I (I think like sammyd) initially understood your example "a CD-ROM" as an example of your rule "when you expect that the reader is so familiar with the acronym that he/she automatically "translates" it in his head to the "full" version". As you say, and as I realised after my initial misreading, that would make no sense.
    In #14 I was just trying to explain why sammyd might have misunderstood you. I also asked what rule "a CD-ROM" was an example of - was it just an example of an initialism taking "a" not "an"?

    If this post-to-post chase is confusing, basically what I am saying is that I was just trying to explain why sammyd misunderstood you, and did not consider in my wildest dreams that anyone might take my explanation of the misunderstanding as criticism.
    #20Verfasser CM2DD (236324) 13 Mär. 08, 08:36
    Kommentar
    @CM2DD, OK, I think I understand now. It did get a little confusing there along the way and I guess I played my part in that as well. The late hour probably didn't help either!
    #21VerfasserRMA (UK) (394831) 13 Mär. 08, 09:16
    Kommentar
    An example: 'a UFO', and 'an unidentified flying object'
    #22Verfasserstellah15 Mai 08, 06:05
    Kommentar

    An acronym implies some form of abbreviation that itself becomes a new word.


    Pedestrian light controlled crossing: pelican crossing (o shifts to a to satisfy the orthography)

    Defcon comes from defense condition in the US. There's no real reason why it should be written in caps.


    An abbreviation is not always an acronym. DWP: department for work and pensions.


    There are contracted forms however that will often be said other than as they appear:

    etc. - said as et cetera

    N.B. - often said as nota bene

    text abbreviations too will generally be "heard out full": IMHO - in my honest opinion.


    So, although we write in order to suggest a voice in the reader's head, how we write something isn't always how we "hear" it.


    The a/an article shift occurs in accordance with how the writer expects the reader to "hear" what is written. It's not predicated on vowels and consonants as such, but on vowel sounds, and consonant sounds. So letters that start with an "e" will take "an": F, M, N, S, X.


    An X-rated movie.

    An MP in a UK assembly.


    If "SAP" is known both as its letters and as an acronym (word), the writer will indicate their choice in the article:


    An SAP procedure is an S-A-P procedure.

    A SAP procedure is a SAP( or "sap") procedure.


    To write the acronym NATO and expect the reader to hear "North Atlantic Treaty Organization" is going too far. The writer can write either, depending which they want the reader to "hear" in their own mind. But they can't write the one and expect the reader to hear the other in their mind.

    #23VerfasserGraVin (371594)  04 Dez. 23, 11:26
    Kommentar

    I think we're talking about two groups, when there are actually three or maybe four:

    1. abbreviations that are pronounced as single letters: CD, MP3...
    2. abbreviations that are pronounced as a word: NATO, RADAR (and for some people in the UK SAP)
    3. abbreviations that are spelled our in the head of the reader: IMHO, etc
    4. abbreviations that are spelled out with different word in the head of the reader: e.g. = for example


    The rule for a/an is pretty simple in itself, but how to know (especially as a non-native speaker) what a native speaker will hear in his head, is the tricky part.


    That being said, I find it very difficult to make a sentence, where a/an will appear before an abbreviation of the groups 3 and 4, but that is mostly because all abbreviations in those groups that I can think of, are not nouns.

    #24Verfasser Schurre (615067) 04 Dez. 23, 12:15
    Kommentar

    (NB: Kein Komma vor 'where' und hinter 'of')

    #25Verfasser Gibson (418762) 04 Dez. 23, 13:24
     
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