Das haben wir doch relativ kürzlich in epischer Breite diskutiert, aber ich finde es nicht mehr. Wer kann helfen?

Ms.
Dear Ms. Smith

Ich bin kein Muttersprachler, aber ich halte es so:

Eine Erwachsene rede ich grundsätzlich mit "Missis" an, außer sie will es anders.

Im Schriftlichen benutze ich die Abkürzung "Ms.", was sowohl "Miss" als auch "Mrs." bedeutet.

@ werner: meintest du dies?
  related discussion:Ms, Mrs, Miss

"miss" ist die besser alternative. man hat mich schon mal ausgelacht als ich blind "misses" gesagt habe - das ist nämlich eine unterstellung dass die frau verheiratet ist. "miss" ist auf jeden fall gut.

"man hat mich schon mal ausgelacht als ich blind "misses" gesagt habe - das ist nämlich eine unterstellung dass die frau verheiratet ist"

Dann ist aber die Anrede "Miss" eine Unterstellung, dass die Frau ledig ist. Im Deutschen spricht man erwachsene Frauen normalerweise auch als "Frau" und nicht als "Fräulein" an.

@ °Andreas: Sprichst Du in Deutschland auch erwachsene, unverheiratete Frauen mit "Fräulein" an? Ich denke, auch im englischen Sprachraum gilt zumindest in der jüngeren Generation "Miss" als ziemlich verstaubt, es bestehen wohl fast nur noch wirklich alte "alte Jungfern" auf diese Bezeichnung.
(Just my 2 cents)

das ist doch genau der punkt warum ich den fehler gemacht habe. aber die analogie mit "fräulein" stimmt eben nicht. "miss" ist die übliche Anrede für alle Frauen die man nicht kennt. und zwar nicht nur für alte jungfern. und die unterstellung des ledigseins ist anscheinend in den usa vorzuziehen. jüngere frauen einfach so mit "misses" ansprechen geht nämlich gar nicht. zumindest eben auf AE. native speakers, anyone?

maybe a bit late, but....
"Miss" is what I always use.
BE native speaker

There was another discussion more recently, but I can't find it either.

In a letter, it's always OK to use Ms, but if you know the woman is married and doesn't mind you using "mrs", then Mrs. If you know she is unmarried and doesn't mind "miss", use that.
The same when *speaking* about someone whose surname you know, e.g. "Ms Young is going to help Mrs Smith and Miss Clement."
When getting someone's attention in the street, use "Excuse me" or "Excuse me, miss!" if you must say it's a woman.
To a teacher, we always said "Miss, can I go to the toilet?" - never "Mrs, can I ...?"
If you are a shop assistant, asl "Can I help you, madam?" (BE)
If you are an old, married, macho man or joking, refer to your wife as "the missus".

Mrs is always written like that BTW, there isn't a long form except "the missus" which only means "wife".

Als ich 1980 ans College in die USA ging, war das eine meiner ersten Fragen. Man sagte mir, ich solle Frauen im Zweifelsfall mit "Mizz" anreden (stimmhaftes s wie in "Rose", im Gegensatz zu "Miss" mit stimmlosem s). Weiß aber nicht, ob das heute noch so gehandhabt wird.

Agree with Antelope, Archfarchnad etc. also for AE. (Only difference being that AE uses 'Mrs.' with period/full stop.)

Related: 'related discussion"
  related discussion:männliche/ weibliche Anrede
  related discussion:Mrs. vs. Ms.
  related discussion:"Dear Sirs" or "Dear gentlemen"??

Folgende Erklärung:

- wenn du weisst, dass die Dame verheiratet ist nimmst du "Mrs."
"Mrs." wird normalerweise nicht ausgeschrieben, nur abgekürzt geschrieben.
Ausgesprochen wird es "Misses"
Ausnahme: Ausgeschrieben findest du "Misses" eventuell in einer Damenkleiderabteilung. Damit soll dann hervorgehoben werden, dass es hier nur Damenkleidung gibt!

- wenn du weisst, dass die Dame unverheiratet ist, musst du "Ms." nehmen, wird "miss" ausgesprochen und man kann auch "Miss" auschreiben

- wenn du nicht weisst, ob verheiratet oder nicht ist es "Ms.", wird "Miß" ausgesprochen, also mit einem sehr scharfen deutlichen "s". In der Regel wird "Ms." auch nicht ausgeschrieben, wird nur abgekürzt geschrieben!

Thema Punkt setzen oder nicht: Der Trend geht eindeutig von den Punkten weg.
Die ganz klassische Schreibweise früher war:
Ms - keine Ahnung ob verheiratet
Ms. - für nicht verheiratet
Mrs. - für verheiratet

Hoffe das hilft weiter?

Britta

@Britta: Was ist denn dann der Unterschied zwischen Deinen beiden "Ms."? Geschrieben sehe ich ja nicht, wie man's spricht! Und ob die Aussprache "miss" oder "miß" ist, macht ja wohl überhaupt keinen Unterschied. Nein, nein. Die unverheiratete Dame heißt "Miss", das wird auch ausgeschrieben, und gesprochen wird es mit einem scharfen s. Wenn man den Ehestand nicht kennt, ist es dagegen Ms, und das wird _nicht_ mit scharfem s gesprochen, sondern, wie hier bereits gesagt wurde, eher "mizz", aber mit einem ganz kurzen i.
Zur Frage, ob Punkt oder nicht: Da gibt es halt enen Unterschied, je nachdem, ob AE oder BE, das klang hier auch schon mehrfach an und ist auch in einer oder mehreren älteren Diskussionen ausführlich besprochen worden, vielleicht ist bei den von Peter<us> genannten eine dabei, die habe ich mir nicht angeschaut.
Also, tsunami: Mit "Ms" liegst Du nie falsch und bist höflich.

Stimme Janek zu.
Ms wenn man nicht weißt
Miss nicht verheiratet
Mrs verheiratet

ich denke, daß wollte auch die Britta sagen. Mit Ms kann man nichts falsches machen

>"Ms. wird 'Miß' ausgesprochen" --> No @Britta, not quite

"Miss" is pronounced like German "miß" -- stimmlos
"Ms." is pronounced "Mizz" -- stimmhaft, rhymes with "fizz"

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/Ms..htm

In any business situation Ms. is always correct. Miss and Mrs. are rather old fashioned in my opinion. I would only use Miss jokingly. Mrs. I do use use for older family aquaintances or business associates who carried the title Mrs. before Ms. came into use.

Ms. is *not* just for unmarried women. It was brought into use as an equivalent to Mr.. The whole point of Ms. is to focus on the woman as a person and not on her marriage status.

Please, use Ms.

I would say Ms. is actually pronounced nearer to "muzz" rather than "mizz".

In olden days [not so long ago, though] the rule was to address a woman as Miss unless you knew for certain otherwise. I presume that that has now been overtaken by Ms. unless otherwise known.

Many women hate Ms. To them it sounds horrible and is allied to the use of "Partner" instead of "Spouse" so as not to embarrass the politcally correct who might be divorced and/or "living in sin" with someone else. There are people who would just prefer not to use titles, especially in business where marital status shouldn't even be an issue. The German use of Frau as a title for all adult women seems to be free of all this politcally correct baggage and works better than the English Ms.

Actually I would agree with Paul on the pronunciation -- it is more of a Schwa than a short i -- so if I spell it phonetically: "M schwa Z".

yes, Ms = Mzzzz.

BTW "Misses" written that way is not the long form of "Mrs", it is the plural of "miss". Very old-fashioned; you'd read it in Jane Austen: "the Misses Steele" etc.

I would avoid the use of Miss altogether, unless:

1. You are speaking to a very young girl and she is being naughty, eg:
"What do you think you're doing Miss?"

2. You are speaking to a very old woman who has never been married, eg:
"Miss Smith has lived in that house for the last 80 years."

3. You are a child and speaking to a female teacher, eg:
"Miss, he was hitting me."

In all other cases I can think of, use Ms if you don't know the marital status or Mrs if you know she is married.

@Archfarchnad -gb-:

"If you are an old, married, macho man or joking, refer to your wife as "the missus""

That's my girl!

>Ms. is *not* just for unmarried women. It was brought into use as an >equivalent to Mr.. The whole point of Ms. is to focus on the woman as a person >and not on her marriage status.
>Please, use Ms.

I fully support surfer.

>Many women hate Ms. To them it sounds horrible and is allied to the use >of "Partner" instead of "Spouse" so as not to embarrass the politcally >correct who might be divorced and/or "living in sin" with someone else.

... and disagree with Paul:
I for one hate both Miss and Mrs, and insist on having Ms on whatever kind of document. I actually asked for a work contract to be redrafted once for that reason. And nobody prevents people from calling their spouses 'husband' or 'wife', as far as I know, which doesn't mean they should called unmarried people's partners the same.

>There are people who would just prefer not to use titles, especially in >business where marital status shouldn't even be an issue.

This I completely agree with, however I now tend to choose 'Ms' in preference to 'none' in the title category on many (UK) forms, as otherwise it is not uncommon that someone else ends up attributing you a title - usually either Miss or Mrs.

.../...

.../...

>The German use of Frau as a title for all adult women seems to be free of all >this politcally correct baggage and works better than the English Ms.

As noted elsewhere (this thread and previous one), it seems fairly likely that this use of Frau has indeed much to do with the invention of Ms by feminists. However, feminists are not the only ones using the language and I read that particularly in America, it is (was?) not uncommon to reserve the use of Ms to divorced women (as you can imagine, not quite the original idea of the feminists). The only way to make it a truly non-discriminatory title is to use is for as many women as possible - be they single, married or divorced (which boils down to single anyway) - so that it is as uninformative as possible.

To make my point clearer, think about is this way (especially men): would you like being asked, on first encounter with someone (usually in a professional context): Are you married or unmarried? I guess you'd find it borderline rude - and yet that's exactly the piece of information that's requested from a woman when she's asked: "Is is Miss or Mrs?"

We could, of course, address all females with "lady", "woman" or "female". That would solve the "problem" as simply as the German "Frau".

> I read that particularly in America, it is (was?) not uncommon to reserve the use of Ms to divorced women

This was never the case, and is not the case now.

In the early days it was used mostly by those (of both sexes) in, or sympathetic to, the women's movement to refer to a woman of any marital status, precisely analogous to Mr. as estal pointed out.

There was some early counterreaction by socially conservative women who pointedly wanted to be addressed 'Mrs.' or 'Miss' and not 'Ms.' as a way of distancing themselves from the movement. However this has largely subsided, except for ideologues, older women accustomed to a lifetime of using one or the other expression, and the proverbial 'small pockets of resistance'.

You can pretty safely use 'Ms. X' to address any woman in writing or in person unless protocol calls for a title, such as 'Dr. X', 'President X', and so on.

Common sense applies--if in doubt, just ask--no one will be upset at you for that.

@hein mück
I've (often) heard 'Hey, lady' and even 'Hey, woman', but I've never been addressed with 'Hey, female' - not too sure I'd like it though! I find it even more difficult to imagine it as a title: Female X (Fml?). Well I suppose it's not worse than Genosse X...

@Peter <us>
You seem pretty well informed but I swear I've read that at some point some stylebooks (newspapers etc.) somewhere in the big English-speaking world expressely called for the use of Ms only for divorced women or when their marital status is unknown, and Miss or Mrs otherwise. It's from a (not recent) book I'm hunting down at the moment, when I've found it I'll post details.

@ Estal

"One impediment to our widespread acceptance of Ms. is the cloud of
misunderstanding that still surrounds it. A 1998 study by
Barbara Kelly of "folklinguistic attitudes" to the use of the term Ms.
showed that many people link it to marital status. They
assume it refers to a divorced, widowed or unmarried woman; that it
deliberately conceals marital status, highlights single status
or shows that a woman is not committed to her husband."

From http://lists.village.virginia.edu/lists_archi... offering further insight into the history and use of Ms.

Totally agree with Peter<US>. "Ms." is commonly used for all business correspondance (and used verbally), no matter what the individual's marital status is. Mrs. and Miss are only used anymore if the lady in question expresses a preference for one of those terms.