Did you check the archive? This may have already been discussed.

I can speak to American Protestant usage, more or less, but not necessarily to Lutheran usage in particular.


'The Rev.,' with the definite article, is the most traditional and formal usage. 'Reverend' was originally an adjective accompanying a title such as 'Mr.' or 'Dr.,' not the title itself. As far as I know, it's still usually used in this way in the UK, e.g.,

(1)
The Rev. Mr Alan Jones
The Rev. Mr Jones
The Rev. Mrs Diana Smith
The Rev. Mrs Smith
The Rev. Dr Lee Hall
The Rev. Dr Hall

In more formal BE usage, you may even still see the word written out in full as 'Reverend,' or that may even be the preferred form. (If no BE speakers show up, you might try the archive.)

In the US, most Anglicans (= Episcopalians), some other relatively high-church or traditionalist congregations, and some conservative grammatical purists usually retain the article 'the,' but don't usually combine it with 'Mr.,' 'Mrs.,' or 'Ms.,' only with the person's name:

(2a)
The Rev. Alan Jones
The Rev. Jones
The Rev. Diana Smith
The Rev. Smith

However, 'Dr.' (used for a clergyperson with a doctorate, such as a DMin) usually still follows the traditional pattern as in (1):

(2b)
The Rev. Dr. Hall

So you could say that for these groups it has halfway completed the change from an adjective into a title.

In many other US Protestant denominations (e.g., Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists), envelopes or very formal lists may still be as in (2), but in most everyday use, the word 'the' is usually omitted, and 'Dr.' is simply substituted for 'Rev.'

(3)
Rev. Alan Jones
Rev. Jones
Rev. Diana Smith
Rev. Smith
Dr. Lee Hall
Dr. Hall

So in practical terms, for these mainline or lower-church groups in the US, 'Rev.' seems to have become a title in its own right.

In most of these denominations, 'Pastor' is not used as a title at all, only lowercase, as a job description:

Rev. Smith is the pastor of First Presbyterian Church.

Specifically among Lutherans in the US (and perhaps some other denominations), I believe it is often also used as a title:

(4a)
Pastor Smith
Pastor Jones

I personally wouldn't say that, and I don't know if there are any Lutherans in the forum who could confirm or correct it.

In some (evangelical?) churches, there seems to be a (recent?) trend of using 'Pastor' with the first name:

(4b)
Pastor Alan
Pastor Diana

Personally, that sets my teeth a little on edge, but tastes, as we know, differ. (-:

hm did a great job of describing the differences. I would add that my current church, a casual, evangelical beach-city congregation, falls into category 4b. (Notice the qualifiers of casual, beach city.) In a church I attended many years ago, even the pastor's wife referred to him as "the reverend" without further qualification. Everyone knew that "the reverend" was "the Reverend Doctor Jones", senior pastor at the church.

Ich habe mal auf der Webseite der lutherischen Kirche bei mir um die Ecke geguckt, und die verwenden durchgehend "Pastor" und Nachname.

Hi, Robert, happy Easter. (-:

'The reverend' is another good point. I've heard it used like that in, for example, black churches.

In the churches I'm most familiar with, which follow the usage in (3), it would only be used very occasionally in a humorous or jocular way. Instead of that, in my region we tend to say 'the preacher' colloquially, especially older people, or members of rural or small-town churches. There it's also a term of direct address: 'Preacher, I really liked that story in your sermon about ...'

More formally, as the standard neutral description, we in group (3) are more likely to say 'the minister' than 'the pastor.' But 'Minister' isn't used as a title in direct address. (Except in British sitcoms about politicians.)

Anglicans would be different there too -- 'the rector' in AE (2), and probably 'the vicar' in BE (1).

Even though there's no short, easy answer for all purposes, dixie's suggestion of checking a few Lutheran websites is probably a good solution for Anna. (-:

In BE usage, "pastor" is rarely used as a title (together with a name), but only as a designation, normally only in Baptist and Free Churches.

Rev. or The Rev. (both of which are spoken "The Reverend") are prefixed to the name of most Christian clergy. It should not be used with a surname alone, but with an initial, a forename, or another title (e.g. Mr, Dr, Prof -- all of which it precedes)

It is a solecism to talk of "The Reverend Jones" or to pronounce "Rev." as "Rev", or to address a clergyman/woman as "Reverend" (As in "Good Morning, reverend -- that is, at best, jocular.)

In the Church of England, there are some special variants:
Archdeacon: The Ven. (= Venerable)
Dean: The Very Rev.
Bishop: The Rt. Rev. (Right Reverend)
Archbishop: The Most Rev.

Roman Catholic bishops and archbishops are usually also referred to as above.

Clergymen should be addressed by the office they hold: "Good morning, archdeacon." "Nice one, vicar." But some Anglican priests and almost all Catholic ones prefer to be addressed as "Father". I haven't yet heard of an Anglican priestess who invites her parishioners to call her "Mother". (They don't like being called priestesses either -- sounds too pagan -- but that's their problem.)

In AE too, 'Rev.' is pronounced /reverend/, just as 'Dr.' is pronounced /doctor/ and 'Mr.' is pronounced /mister/. 'Rev' is a slang short form used very casually or jocularly, much like 'Doc'; neither is confused with the standard title.

In both AE and BE, the word 'priestess' is used only in reference to ancient or primitive cultures, not for modern clergywomen. The modern word for all Anglican clergy is simply 'priest,' just as the modern word for versifiers of either gender is 'poet' rather than the obsolete 'poetess.' I know that escoville is aware of that, just objecting to it; but learners should be aware that his comments were more sarcastic than factual.

In the US Anglican (= Episcopal) churches I'm familiar with, clergywomen are indeed called 'Mother Diana' if it's the kind of congregation where clergymen are called 'Father Alan.'

OT: I personally find both of those as manipulative as 'Pastor Tom.' The superficial chumminess of the first name only masks an underlying insistence on deference to the title, placing adult churchgoers in a submissive role. Such titles are no more normal between adults of equal status than calling a peer 'Mr. Jim' or 'Mrs. Betty.' In fact, those forms of address were traditionally used mainly by children or servants. But luckily, I don't have to go to one of those churches. (-:

hm-us is of course perfectly right about my use of the word "priestess". However, I think that the objection to it is different from the objection to poetess: the latter is seen as an irrelevant allusion to gender, the former is uncomfortably reminiscent of pagan rites, and touches on deeply-held attitudes to women as priests. After all, whether a poet is a man or woman is only of marginal relevance, but whether a priest is a man or a woman is, for many people, fundamental. Hence the need for some gender-specific expression like "woman priest" if you can't stomach "priestess".

As for "Father" as a form of address, I think there is a subtle difference between "Father" and the chummy "Father Jack". (I knew an Irishwoman once who referred to her son -- a priest -- as "Father Phil".) But in Catholic schools, pupils are required to call their teachers (if they're priests) "Father" (rather than "Sir").

The Irish comedian Dave Allan had a sketch about an Anglican priest in Belfast and his Catholic cleaner. The latter called him "Sir", which he found too formal.
"What shall I call you then, Sir?"
"Well, what do you call your own, ahem, priest?"
"I call him 'father', Sir."
"Well call me 'father', too."
"What, you a 'father' with a wife and six kids!?."

Happy Easter everybody, and thanks for all of your replies, especially for your detailed explanations, hm--us!

The explanation of the development of "reverend" from an adjective to a title is very helpful, and also the explanations about the way these titles are used in different areas and denominations.
There are so many different titles even within Germany which make it hard to keep track of - for instance, "Pastor" is the perfectly normal term here in Northern Germany, but a Lutheran senior pastor in Southern Germany might actually feel offended by being addressed as "Pastor" instead of "Pfarrer", and of course a "Vikar" in a protestant church is something completely different from a "Vikar" in the Catholic church, or from a "vicar" in BE use. So understanding these slight differences in another language is not quite easy...

Checking Lutheran websites helps, of course, and I have done that, but I could not really figure out a consistent way they use these titles. They seemed to be sort of interchangeable, but I was never quite sure. And so I myself have in the past sort of used these titles interchangeably but was never 100% sure either.

The Lutheran churches I have personally visited actually use the pastor + first name form ("Pastor Jim") in casual address a lot. Your OT comment, hm--us, really makes me wonder about this. Would this kind of address actually feel like that (submissive and deferential, or even manipulative) to people?

You also mentioned the archive. I did check for other threads discussing this question, but is there an archive here that I have not yet discovered? Maybe someone could help me with a link? Thanks!

Hi, Anna, happy belated Easter.

Obviously many churches use it, so there must be a lot of people whom it doesn't particularly bother. Robert, for instance, probably. (-:

And I imagine 'Pastor' with a first name may also sound more natural in churches such as Lutheran ones that already use 'Pastor' as a formal title, and may even have done so for centuries. So I don't think German Lutherans would need to worry about it. Still, it might be interesting to ask US Lutherans whether the first-name addition is a relatively recent development, and if so, whether it might be likely to turn off any older churchgoers.





Now really, really OT:

It just feels considerably stranger to me when it shows up in other denominations (like mine) where ministers are traditionally addressed either with their correct title (Rev. or Dr.) and last name, if you don't know them well, or simply with their first name if you do. In that context it feels to me like an unwelcome import from a recent trend toward (IMO) an overly materialistic, consumerist approach to religion that is characterized by a deliberate, programmatic emphasis on large churches, numeric growth, casual worship, shopping-mall-like features (gyms, snack bars, coffeehouses), electronic pop music, purpose-driven pastors, and especially, right-wing values. I know that that model has been (financially, numerically) successful precisely because it's so market-based, and it clearly appeals to many people, and meets some of their needs in important ways. And one of those needs seems to be for a loving but firm parental authority figure (perhaps not unlike children in a traditional school, as escoville's example suggests). I just tend to resist much of that on principle, because in practice, it often seems to turn into an ethic of excluding anyone who doesn't buy into the whole constellation as a total package, or agree with the pastor. That is, it seems to meet certain needs (e.g., friendship, support, certainty, comfort) at the expense of others (e.g., spiritual growth, diversity, change, critical thinking).

But again, that's really all very far OT, sorry.


Back to more practical matters: By the archive I meant old forum threads, which used to be listed in a separate section named Archiv (IIRC), but are now reachable via Suche in allen Foren (above left). Unfortunately I don't really remember a particular title, but since you know more of the various German options (which also boggle my mind, by the way, so I can understand why our many choices may be equally confusing), you might try some of those, if 'reverend' didn't turn anything up.

A happy belated Easter to all!

As hm surmised, "Pastor + First Name" doesn't bother me. In my particular context, it does not express a dominant/submissive relationship at all. "Reverend + Last Name" would be far too formal for the setting. "Pastor + Last Name" is even too formal once someone has started to become a regular attender. Those of us who know the pastor well simply use his first name when speaking to him directly. For those who know him too well for a last name but not quite well enough for a simple first name, saying "Pastor Don" works very well. It provides a nice transition between the distance and formality of strangers and the familiarity and informality of close friendship. Also, when talking about people in the church, using "Pastor Don" serves to distinguish him from among several other Dons in the congregation. Another factor that figures into this is, as I mentioned in an earlier post, we are a beach-town, casual congregation - in California. That culture of casualness leads to the use of first names quickly, but the use of "pastor" honors the man, his position and the long years of service.

In addition, I would note that "Pastor" is usually the highest non-academic honorific used in "low church" congregations such as most evangelical churches (e.g. Southern Baptist, non-denominational, Assemblies of God, Foursquare, etc.). Many of those churches also use "Brother" and "Sister" + First Name to refer to members of the congregation. ("Good morning, Brother Tom. How are you doing today?" "Just fine, Sister Margie. Have you seen Brother Jason yet this morning? He's helping with the baptismal service.") So "Pastor + First Name" fits well into that schemata.

A few congregations also use the term "Elder" to designate certain offices in the church, but it has fallen out of usage as a title among many evangelicals because it has become so closely associated with the Latter Day Saints. As soon as you say "Elder Jones" or "Elder Brian", most people will immediately assume you are talking about a young Mormon missionary. But those same churches will use "elder" for the position: "Jack is an elder in the church. There will be a meeting of the Board of Elders on Wednesday."

OT: I agree that a lot of churches seem to have bought into the whole "church-growth movement" and packaging idea. I am very pleased that the leadership in my congregation recognizes that successful marketing can't replace the work of the Spirit, that numerical growth isn't the same thing as spiritual growth, and that the kingdom of God isn't tied to a particular political agenda.

Hi again, everybody, and thanks for your contributions!

Actually, I don't consider any of your comments OT at all. Isn't it part of really understanding a language to understand the connotations of a word and what people might be hearing in a certain term, even though it has not been explicitly said or even meant? So I consider this very helpful in getting a better grasp on how these words are being used in AE and in different denominations.
(Come to think of it, our church does not have a gym and a snack bar yet... Seems like we're really far behind! ;-) )

@ hm--us, "And I imagine 'Pastor' with a first name may also sound more natural in churches such as Lutheran ones that already use 'Pastor' as a formal title, and may even have done so for centuries. So I don't think German Lutherans would need to worry about it."
Well, German Lutherans at least in Germany would never use Pastor + first name, so that would at least sound very unnatural to us. If you would want to be formal, you would say Pastor + last name, but in casual use just "Herr" or "Frau" + last name would be much more common nowadays.

"Still, it might be interesting to ask US Lutherans whether the first-name addition is a relatively recent development, and if so, whether it might be likely to turn off any older churchgoers."
Yes, that would really be interesting. Way back when I had my confirmation, we used to go to a Missouri Synod church and there I never heard anyone use anything else than "Pastor + last name" back then. But then, there may even be differences between Lutheran denominations, who knows?

BTW, "Suche in allen Foren" is what I did check. There are only a couple of threads dealing mostly with questions like "Is 'Hochwürden' the right translation for 'reverend'?" The abbreviation "rev" turns up a bunch of threads, most of which don't have anything to do with "reverend" altogether, and any other terms I could think of were equally unsatisfactory. So, if there was an old thread on this, it seems like I am too stupid to find it...