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    Sprachlabor

    race/racial - im Englischen "normale" Wörter?

    Betrifft

    race/racial - im Englischen "normale" Wörter?

    Kommentar
    Die Wörter "Rasse", "rassisch" sind im Deutschen durch die Nazizeit historisch belastet und werden normalerweise nicht mehr verwendet, um über die ethnische Herkunft von Menschen zu sprechen.

    Im Englischen scheinen mir "race" und "racial" aber sehr gebräuchlich zu sein, auch in wissenschaftlichen Texten. Könnt ihr das bestätigen?

    Danke im Voraus!

    P.S.
    Ich entschuldige mich gleich schon mal, falls die Frage bereits gestellt wurde ;-) (konnte sie in der Forensuche leider nicht finden).
    VerfasserLea01 Mär. 10, 21:34
    Kommentar
    the words are by their very nature polarizing, so they come with baggage in English as well, and depending on what the context deals with, that baggage could be quite heavy,
    #1Verfasser dude (253248) 01 Mär. 10, 21:35
    Kommentar
    Danke, Dude :-)

    Mir ist nur aufgefallen, dass es z.B. extrem viele moderne englische Buchtitel mit der Wendung "Class, Race and Gender" gibt - im Deutschen würde man hier nie das Wort "Rasse" benutzen.

    siehe z.B.
    http://books.google.de/books?sourceid=navclie...
    #2VerfasserLea01 Mär. 10, 21:40
    Kommentar
    Es kommt immer auf den Kontext an; in deinem Beispiel erscheint es eher harmlos.

    Im allgemeinen oder gar wissenschaftlichen Sprachgebrauch hat "race" sicher nur selten eine Vorbelastung, zumindest eine intentionierte Vorbelastung, doch wissenschaftlich gesehen halte ich den Gebrauch von Haus aus fragwürdig, da man ja inzwischen wissenschaftlich festgestellt hat (Dank Genforschung), dass es nur eine Rasse gibt, nämlich die menschliche.
    #3Verfasser dude (253248) 01 Mär. 10, 21:42
    Kommentar
    "Rasse" wird in unterschiedlichen Kulturen durchaus unterschiedlich bewertet.

    Soweit ich das beurteilen kann, wird "Rasse" ob nun in englisch oder deutsch immer weniger gebraucht, weil es anthropologisch/biologisch mittlerweile klar ist, dass es im wissenschaftlichen Sinne keine "Rassen" bei Menschen gibt, sondern allenfalls "Unterarten/subspecies". Diese Erkenntnis muss sich nur noch weiterverbreiten, bis es auch bei denen, die es bewusst falsch verstehen wollen, angekommen ist.


    #4Verfasser Rex (236185) 01 Mär. 10, 21:47
    Kommentar
    Yes, 'race' and 'racial' are very common in English, indeed, essential for discussing issues of discrimination on the basis of skin color as opposed to broader categories of ethnicity or cultural background. In our culture it is not a biological but a societal question, and since racism and discrimination still exist, we still need the words to describe those realities.

    There have been several very long forum discussions on related topics, with detailed explanations of historical background and modern perspectives. Please take time to browse in the forum archive (Suche in allen Foren / Search all).
    #5Verfasser hm -- us (236141) 01 Mär. 10, 23:29
    Kommentar
    since racism and discrimination still exist

    true, but the trend has been of late to move away from "race" and towards "ethnic background," for example, so "race" is losing in importance even on a societal level.
    #6Verfasser dude (253248) 01 Mär. 10, 23:35
    Kommentar
    Danke an Rex, Dude und hm-us für eure Meinungen!

    Habe nochmal genauer in der Forumssuche geschaut und diesen sehr langen Thread gefunden:
    Siehe auch: colour issues...???

    hm-us und Dude, ihr hattet offenbar schon damals sehr unterschiedliche Ansichten zu diesem Thema ;-)

    Habe auch nochmal in Google-Books geschaut und festgestellt, dass mittlerweile anscheinend auch deutsche Veröffentlichungen in Anlehnung ans Englische "Klasse, Rasse und Gender" verwenden. "Rasse" ist allerdings oft in Anführungsstriche gesetzt, in einer Fußnote erläutert o.Ä. Den Gebrauch dieses Wortes im Deutschen finde ich ausgesprochen gewöhnungsbedürftig...
    #7VerfasserLea01 Mär. 10, 23:54
    Kommentar
    re #7: Yes, thank you for the link, that's definitely one of the past threads. (There may still be a few others as well.)

    I'm afraid you may have had to use a search engine + site:leo.org to find it, because the forum search really failed, at least when I tried. Sorry about that.

    The consensus is definitely that 'Rasse' is not necessarily the best translation into German, because it has much stronger negative connotations and is understood much more biologically. I suppose putting it in quotation marks is one possible approach, but there also seems to be a strong case for just using different words in German, while understanding that the English words don't have the same overtones.
    #8Verfasser hm -- us (236141) 02 Mär. 10, 00:10
    Kommentar
    Rex: Ähm, Rasse ist in der modernen Biologie dasselbe wie Unterart.

    Die ganze Diskussion ist sehr kompliziert und pauschale Parolen wie "Menschliche Rassen gibt es nicht" werden dem nicht gerecht. Solche Aussagen sind schon deshalb erkenntnisleer, weil nicht daraus hervorgeht, welche Definition zugrundeliegt. Leider ist es schwer, über dieses Thema wirklich rational zu diskutieren.
    #9VerfasserAlmagest02 Mär. 10, 00:12
    Kommentar
    Ach bitte, auch im Deutschen interessiert doch beim Thema "Ausländer & Co" kaum einen irgendeine biologische Untermauerung mehr von Rasse à la Blutlinien, historische Wanderungen/Vererbungen oder sonstige Genetik. Jedenfalls nicht, wenn es um Themen wie "Türken überfallen deutsche Oma" geht. Es geht dann rein um's Aussehen von Gruppen (also den Phänotyp), insbesondere was das Gesicht angeht; Hautfarbe, Haarfarbe/-art, Augen, Wangenknochen, wieviel Bartwuchs usw.
    Ob nun die genetische Varianz innerhalb von Gruppe x größer ist als die zwischen Gruppe x und Gruppe y ist doch völlig egal. Statt Rasse ist hierzulande mangels vieler Schwarzer und Asiaten eben direkt "Türke", "Russe" oder "Ausländer" angesagt.
    #10Verfasserdeirueirj02 Mär. 10, 22:37
    Kommentar
    Letzten Sonntag auf ARTE: In der Reihe "Wir bleiben bestehen" sprach eine Indianerin von den indianischen Stämmen als "our race". Die deutsche Übersetzung war "unser Volk".
    #11Verfasserphunk03 Mär. 10, 08:54
    Kommentar
    Meist wird in Formularen in den USA Ethnicity stehen, wenn es um Herkunft geht. Also Asian, African American, Native A., Caucasian etc.
    Ich meine aber, dass einem manchmal "Race" begegnet (korrigiere mich, Dude)
    Ich habe es immer auf meine deutsche Herkunft bezogen, dass mich das Wort "race" ein bisschen die Stirn runzeln laesst. Ich glaube nicht, dass es die gleiche Schwere hat wie bei uns (persoenliche Meinung)

    Eine andere Anmerkung: Rasse kann ja im Deutschen auf Mensch und Tier bezogen werden; vielleicht hat es auch deshalb einen negativen, abwertenden Beigeschmack (u.A.) Im Englischen ist das nicht so gaengig. Race vs. Breed.
    #12VerfasserAnna 10028 (672497) 03 Mär. 10, 10:17
    Kommentar
    The use of the word "race" is actually encouraged in the UK in some circumstances, for example we use the word "mixed-race" to describe children born to parents of different ethnicities. This term is preferable to other terms like "half-caste" which have derogatory overtones. You will also hear the word "inter-racial" used a lot, and there are many organisations which try to improve "race relations".
    #13VerfasserMatt03 Mär. 10, 10:54
    Kommentar
    @Matt. Das überrascht mich (im Sinne von, das wusste ich nicht)
    An der politisch überkorrekten Westküste geht mixed-race zum Beispiel nicht mehr so (zumindest hoch im Norden) da wird man oft gleich verbessert. Und inter-racial relationships sind dort inter-cultural relationships.

    In New York ist es etwas lockerer. Ich glaube auch, dass es seit Obama wieder etwas entspannter gesehen wird; gleichzeitig wird der Umgangston etwas respektvoller. Allgemein zumindest.

    Meine Erfahrung ist natürlich etwas limitiert.

    Kommt "half-caste" von den vielen indischen Einwanderern in UK, oder bezieht sich das auch auf etwas anderes?
    #14VerfasserAnna 10028 (672497) 03 Mär. 10, 13:11
    Kommentar
    #10: Das ist ja der Witz. Wenn es nach den Genetikern ginge, wäre es unmöglich, zwischen Leuten mit (vorwiegend) afrikanischen und solchen mit (vorwiegend) europäischen Vorfahren (sowie solchen mit annähernd gleichen Anteilen) zu unterscheiden. Das ist es natürlich nicht, "self-reported ancestry" funktioniert sehr gut. Eben weil der Phänotyp für die Bestimmung der Rasse (ich benutze das Wort jetzt einfach mal, weil ich kein anderes kenne, das genau das gleiche bedeutet) zählt und nicht die Gene. Auf der Ebene des Körperbaus ist die Sache laut Gerichtsmedizinern noch klarer - da gibt es keine "klinalen Übergänge", sondern die Rasse kann mindestens genauso präzise bei einem Skelett bestimmt werden wie bei einem lebenden Menschen, den man vor sich hat. Nur auf der Ebene der Genetik sieht es halt so aus, als gäbe es keine Rassen. Aber die Alltagserfahrung zu negieren, ist natürlich Quatsch.

    Und selbst wenn man die Ebene der Genetik betrachtet, kann man die klinalen Übergänge nicht als Argument gegen das Konzept Rasse (sofern man es passend definiert) benutzen. Das ist genauso, wie wenn man sagen würde, es gäbe keine Dialekte, oder keine Farben, weil sie sich ja nicht genau gegeneinander abgrenzen lassen. Unscharfe Grenzen sind aber nun mal nicht gerade etwas Ungewöhnliches in der Realität. Scharfe Abgrenzungen gibt es allenfalls in der Theorie.
    #15VerfasserAlmagest08 Mär. 10, 21:19
    Kommentar
    re #15: Would it perhaps be clearer to say that you can't draw an absolute line between 'races' using genetics?

    I'm not a scientist, but as I understand it, geneticists can actually determine anyone's racial mix surprisingly well using DNA, finding out what percentage of ancestors anyone has of certain genetic types that are known to be African, Northern European, Asian, etc. Many people aren't purely a single type, especially in regions where there has been more mixing of cultures, but there are certainly people(s) in whom one type strongly predominates. So while it's true that there's no absolute distinction, it's also true that there are empirically observable differences.

    I'm not saying this should have any influence on the language issue, which is just different in German and English.

    But it's still interesting to see how issues of race and genetics can intersect in a more nuanced way, so that even if race is not an either/or, absolute category, it is still sometimes a valid descriptive category, though not necessarily a genetic one.

    There was an interesting TV program on PBS last month hosted by Henry Louis Gates, a black Harvard professor who has been very vocal on racial issues. (I forget its title, but it should be somewhere on http://www.pbs.org .) He collected a mixed group of celebrities and writers, some deservedly very famous like Meryl Streep and Yo-Yo Ma, others less well known, and arranged for genealogists and geneticists to research their family background.

    To me the show was partly just frustrating, because the whole conceit involved Gates presenting the results of this research (done mostly by uncredited people offscreen) to these eminent people as if he had done it all himself, and taking a very patronizing tone toward them, as if he was telling them things they could never have learned without his help. He even told them when to turn the page in the photo album he had had made for them -- and when they had their own more extensive photo albums, he used his instead. He basically sets my teeth on edge.

    But it was interesting that one episode involved precisely this kind of DNA testing, where you get a mix of capital letters like E, F, G, etc. (Sorry, I didn't catch the technical term for these geographic groups.) And as it turned out, all the black Americans on the show were actually only partly, sometimes a minority part, of African heritage. Gates himself is part white, though he identifies as black; and basically, there was no one on there blacker than he was. So it was kind of a faux premise. I would have kind of liked to see, oh, I don't know, Shaquille O'Neal or Forrest Whitaker or someone.

    But at least for the US, that would probably have been a dead end for the genealogy portion of the program, because enslaved ancestors tend not to have been recorded in written history. In a sense, it's as if genealogy itself is a racial (racist?) category, a luxury available only to those who are white or part white.

    For those of you to whom all this seems very different and foreign, one other aspect might be interesting: Even after Gates made this announcement, with a pie chart showing percentage northern European, percentage African, etc., the people who considered themselves part of a minority group still didn't change their mind, because it was already their identity. (One, Louise Erdrich, who is part Scandinavian but feels more Native American, even declined to have the DNA test done.) In a sense, they insist on the right to choose and cultivate their own racial identity now, in part to make up for their ancestors' having been denied that right.

    A cynical reading might wonder to what extent this is also true among people of mixed descent who don't have as much at stake in one particular identity. Erdrich and Gates, for example, have made a lot of money and achieved a lot of prestige as, in a sense, spokespersons for their minority groups. Is this kind of identity politics in some sense also a class issue?



    #16Verfasser hm -- us (236141) 08 Mär. 10, 22:26
    Kommentar
    @hm-us
    you used the expression " a black Harvard professor". Is that politically correct. We are constantly told not to use the word black, instead : African/ American or whatever.I've always asked myself how to describe the different skin colours.Is it more accepted in the US than in a hyper sensitive Europe?
    #17Verfasserbridget08 Mär. 10, 23:00
    Kommentar
    It's just a matter of register, and sometimes personal preference or regional usage. In the US, 'black' is the casual or everyday term, still widely used in normal conversation. 'African-American' is a more formal, respectful term, used more in public conversation, journalism, formal writing, and in official or bureaucratic contexts. There are several discussions on points like this in the forum archive.
    #18Verfasser hm -- us (236141) 08 Mär. 10, 23:30
    Kommentar
    @ 16 - Is this kind of identity politics in some sense also a class issue?

    Yes, I think so, and so is the "postracial" kind, in which refusal to accept a particular label, is itself a particular political act and stance. But then, so much of what we have wrapped up in the question of race in the U.S. is rooted more in class and outward class markers (whatever they happen to be) than in what is usually defined as "race." When I was visiting Europe early on during the primaries, an acquaintance some years my senior asked me if I thought America was ready for a black president. I was taken somewhat aback by the question as posed, though of course the wider discourse came to be framed in those terms later on, because I hadn't yet even considered it in those terms; to me the ethnic characteristics of the man who became our president, while obvious and obviously different from those of previous officeholders, were more or less eclipsed at that stage by, say, his being a lawyer. Class was the salient characteristic for me, and still is.

    It's interesting to note the fluidity of the notions of race and ethnicity. In the past ten years alone, some members of my family have stopped being considered "mixed-race." (This is similar to what 14 notes, though I don't think anyone even talks about them being "inter-cultural" anymore. They just have one parent from here, and one from there.) Add to that the cultural baggage that others bring with them when they come here -- a Brazilian who identifies as "white" may well be very dark-skinned compared to a person of English extraction; is a black Venezuelan still "Hispanic"? -- and it's no wonder that we're talking more openly about class these days, and about what "race" is even supposed to be. And that in itself, of course, is a privilege afforded by class.

    You're probably talking about some part of the "African American Lives" series (1 and 2), btw.
    #19VerfasserKatydid (US)09 Mär. 10, 00:22
    Kommentar
    re PBS series: Nope, though those would probably also be interesting for students and teachers looking for more on this topic. This one had Meryl Streep and Yo-Yo Ma in it. Just this past month.

    I'm not saying Gates is bad; I've enjoyed others of his programs. His ego just sometimes intrudes a little obviously, but that's not uncommon among 'TV professors.'

    >>the "postracial" kind, in which refusal to accept a particular label is itself a particular political act and stance

    Yes; and I hasten to say I'm equally skeptical about the people, often politically on the right, who promote that idea only because they themselves are white and/or comfortably off and don't personally benefit from affirmative action, so don't see any need for it for anyone else.

    The whole thing is just still a very vexed issue; and in South America as well, where skin color is still very much a class issue, even though there hasn't traditionally been as much open discussion of it because there wasn't legal segregation on that basis.

    All I'm saying is that it can't hurt for Europeans studying the Americas, and/or English, to be aware of these complex perspectives.


    #20Verfasser hm -- us (236141) 09 Mär. 10, 01:21
    Kommentar
    Oh, no, I certainly didn't mean it that way! What I meant is that it's much easier for a middle- or upper-class person to state how he or she identifies, including declining to state, than for a person who carries the particular class markers that lead others to create the distance needed to attach a label (racial, ethnic, what have you). I have heard of people on the right claiming that there's obviously no need for affirmative action because, hey, look, we have a black president, but I didn't think it was a widespread view.

    Yes, I think Europeans studying English absolutely should be aware of how complicated this set of issues is for us.

    As for Latin America (not just South), I think a closer examination would reveal plenty of legalized discrimination (if not segregation per se), especially surrounding just who counts as an Indian and what that means.
    #21VerfasserKatydid (US)09 Mär. 10, 01:37
     
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