I don't think it's necessarily a regional difference. I was brought up to think of saying it that way as sloppy, so I assume it's more a difference of sociolect (though I do think it's creeping upward).

Interesting. There may well be social implications in when and whether people choose to make the distinction. To me it only sounds 'sloppy' if someone never seems aware that the distinction is possible.

That is, to me part of it is register. It's hard to think of specific examples, but I don't think I would say [thi:] in 'the arms' except in a more formal context, like a speech, or choral singing. In audio, it might depend whether it was a story in a familiar, casual setting, or a more serious, formal text like a documentary.

There could also easily be regional differences, though, because it is definitely part of my own regional accent, which I happen to like, but tend to moderate more in more formal contexts. To me the worst-sounding pronunciation is the reverse problem, when people say [thi:] even before words that don't begin with a vowel. I have the feeling that's even more regional, and most prevalent in the Deep South, like, say, Georgia, but you might be able to find linguistic studies to confirm or correct that impression.

I wonder now if may also vary from word to word, and if there could be any linguistic reason for that, maybe a phonetic one. Is it really all vowels, or only certain ones? I was trying to think of other examples, and I think I would say [thi:] more often in some contexts, like 'the end,' but almost never in others, like 'the evening.'

I would be surprised if [thə] is an indicator of sociolect. My guess would be that it is entirely common in unstressed syllables, which "the" typically would be, since it's rarely the important word in the sentence. (If I said the previous sentence, I would naturally say "[thi:] important", but I would guess that I generally say [thə].)

I also think that I would say "[thi:] end" (I thought of that very example), but that's because the phrase is stressed to indicate dramatically that the story is done.

Oh, interesting. I wonder if we're back to regional differences, then, at least in part. Around here (CA), if you were to say "[thə] evening" or "[thə] important thing," it would be an immediate social marker (including, unfortunately, if it went with a heavy Boston accent, say). In fact, now that I think about it, kids are explicitly taught this pronunciation rule in school here, and the teachers watch for it when they're being tested for reading fluency in the lower grades. I wonder if the high proportion of ELL students has something to do with it, like they're looking for hypercorrectness.

Here's an article I found about it: http://mc.psychonomic-journals.org/content/31...

And Google Books has this book: Foreign language learning: psycholinguistic studies on training and retention.
If you search "thee," you can get their report on their experiments.

I didn't mean only when it's heavily stressed, though; I think that's fairly universal, isn't it? As in, 'This is the book for every question you could ever hope to ask': the one and only, the absolutely uniquely right one.

However, if you think of other contexts, like, 'the end of the line,' 'the end of the day,' I do use a schwa more. Hmm.

But in 'the important' where 'the' doesn't have extra emphasis, I would still actually say [thi:] fairly often, I think. Maybe because it's just easier to get from long E to short I than it is to get from a schwa or short U (as in duh) to short I? Or it's easier to distinguish the two? I find myself wanting to aspirate a little more or something, almost toward a glottal stop, if I don't use [thi:] here -- but it's more effort, so maybe that's why I would use the schwa less? Maybe 'important' is just a more formal word? Or maybe the schwa is actually more raised than back, more toward a short I itself, so it's just too similar?

This is one of those things where it's hard to monitor your own usage. If we only had recordings of ourselves talking without thinking about it, with examples of all possible phonetic combinations ...

Right, no, I didn't mean when it's stressed, either. I think then we all agree it's "[thi:]."

But I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with the register of the word that follows it, either, as you suggest with "important." Would you say "thuh idiot" or "thee idiot"? For me, it's clearly the latter.

I'm not saying I don't slur the two vowels together. If anything, there's a sort of Y sound that creeps in. But a schwa before a vowel immediately sticks out, to me.

Oh, lord, no, I can't stand the sound of my own voice when it's recorded. Suuuch a valley girl, and at my age, too.

Actually more like 'th' idiot'? For me that one has the neutral vowel, but it's not as low as 'thuhhh,' which is what sounds worse to me and what I think of when you say Boston or sloppy or whatever. It's actually not really that far removed from the short I. Maybe that's why 'the important' doesn't work as well for me, because the two unstressed vowels next to each other just become too similar if 'the' has the neutral vowel.

But maybe I'm just imagining that some of these are different from others, which is also entirely possible. I also probably have more accent than I realize, even though it's pretty mild compared to some people.

No one can stand the sound of their recorded voice, that I know of. Well, maybe professional singers or actors, but for the rest of us, it's the 'Who is that person?' syndrome. But it could still be interesting to compare actual sounds, rather than descriptions of them.

To me the worst-sounding pronunciation is the reverse problem, when people say [thi:] even before words that don't begin with a vowel. I have the feeling that's even more regional, and most prevalent in the Deep South, like, say, Georgia ...

Das ist interessant. Ich habe einmal in ener Fachdiskussion einen Deutschen erlebt, der wirklich ausnahmslos jedes the als [thi:] aussprach. Das klang in meinen Ohren ziemlich merkwürdig (und leider verständnishemmend, da ich statt richtig zuzuhören immer nur auf das nächste [thi:] gelauert habe :-( ). Da er aber sonst flüssiges, amerikanisch gefärbtes Englisch sprach, habe ich vermutet, dass er diese eigenartige Aussprache irgendwo in den USA angenommen haben musste.

Ich meine es eigentlich so gelernt zu haben, dass "thee" genauso wie "an" statt "a" vor einem Vokal leichter auszusprechen ist. Ist das tatsächlich der ursprüngliche Grund?

Und wenn jemand "thee" vor einem Konsonanten sagt, scheint mir das eine extra Betonung auf das folgende Wort zu legen. Oder es ist ein Sprachfehler - oder schlicht ein ungenauer Mensch... ;o)

It's got nothing to do with AE vs. BE. "Thuh" and "Thee" are simply interchangeable according to desired emphasis, etc, but it's not something a non-native speaker should need to worry about.

Danke für eure vielen interessanten Beiträge! :-)

@10: Austauschbar? Verstehe ich dich richtig, dass es im (Standard)-BE nur eine Frage der Betonung ist, wie man das "the" ausspricht und nichts mit nachfolgendem Konsonant/Vokal zu tun hat? (P.S. Natürlich bin ich kein Muttersprachler, ich finde solche Fragen aber sehr spannend. Es geht mir nicht in erster Linie darum, das selbst praktisch umzusetzen, sondern es erstmal zu verstehen).

#11
My tuppence-worth. I think you'd usually say “thee” before a vowel, “thuh” before a consonant, especially in formal speech. If that's what you've been taught to do, stick to it.

In informal speech, it's possible to say, e.g. “thuh others”, but not all speakers would do so. In semi-formal and informal speech, you can say “thee” emphatically to say that something is “the definitive xyz”: e.g. ABC's handbags are now the (pr: "thee") must-have fashion item for London's twentysomethings.