or: member of the Bundestag

Not just or. Delegate would be wrong here.

I'm not sure why "delegate" would be wrong:
http://www.duden.de/suchen/dudenonline/abgeor...
Abgeordneter
substantiviertes Adjektiv, maskulin - vom Volk für eine festgelegte Zeit in eine parlamentarische Institution gewählter Vertreter; Deputierter, Delegierter

#2 ist m.M.n. am treffendsten.

MdB = Mitglied des Bundestags = Member of the Bundestag

"Delegate" is wrong in the context. Bob may have had the word "deputy" in mind, but "Member of the Bundestag" is clearest and best.

Similarly, in the United States (federal) government the legislative branch consists of both representatives and senators. I believe their "business cards" simply give their name, followed by "M.C." (Member of Congress).

I doubt very much that U.S. Representatives (members of the lower house of Congress), have cards that use M.C. or even other variations on Member of Congress, unlike in some other countries (that generally use MP and member). They are traditionally called Congressmen (some are Congresswomen). On the floor of the House, each Representative from Virginia is referred to as "the gentleman from Virginia", except for those who are "the gentlelady" (a word I don't not recommend for any other context). Some elevators in the House-side of the Capitol (building) are "For Members Only".

Senators are not called member, representative or delegate.

There may be a small number of lower-level legislative bodies (Virginia?) whose members are officially called delegates, but it is certainly not the norm. Deputy strikes me as even more unlikely, absent a body that uses that word officially.

There are delegates to the United States House of Representatives. They are the non-voting members:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-voting_membe...

That's correct (although they are not very happy about their status, in most cases). There are also delegates to the parties' national conventions, who might even in part be chosen by some sort of election, and to many other conventions, some of which may take votes or otherwise make decisions about various matters.

although they are not very happy about their status

Very true. Here is Stephen Colbert rubbing it in for the delegate from the District of Columbia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5C6Q-wrR7E

Re #8.
 I doubt very much that U.S. Representatives (members of the lower house of Congress), have cards that use M.C. or even other variations on Member of Congress, unlike in some other countries (that generally use MP and member)

You might doubt, but I believe you are wrong.

They are indeed regularly called Congressmen/women or Representatives, but that is beside the point.

They use cards that display the full title of Member of Congress:

http://www.ametsoc.org/boardpges/cwce/docs/pr...

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/eg8A...

Thank you, Himalia, for making the effort to find that.

I lived in Washington, D.C., for a year (several years ago), and I am fairly sure that, at that time, the cards showed the name followed by "M.C."--and it took me a while to figure out that M.C. meant Member of Congress. So, the more recent change, making the designation explicit, is an improvement.

Thanks again.

I lived in Washington, D.C. for several years, working for the House of Representatives and for the Senate, when I was a young lawyer, a long time ago. I didn't spend much time looking at business cards, but at that time, M.C. was not so used, as it is not today, in general, AFAIK. Of course, members of Congress can refer to themselves as such (although Senators would not do so). Nevertheless, member (or M.C. or Member of Congress) is not used internally nor by the general public in the same way that member (MP, etc.) is used for members of parliamentary bodies in many other countries.

Jurist and Flint do not say why delegate is not a suitable translation for "Bundestagsabgeordneter"; they imply that this is because members of the US Congress are not called delegates.

In German there are at least two terms: "Bundestagsabgeordneter" and "Mitglied des Bundestags." Annelise asked for a translation of the former. Is there a way to make this distinction in English? Or can "Bundestagsabgeordneter" be translated only as Member of the Bundestag?

We know from Duden that Germans see Abgeordnete as delegates, and we also know that delegate serves as a translation for this German word in other contexts.

But to keep everyone happy, perhaps representative, a very American term. Federal Diet representative. But it ain't got that swing.

That's how I would word it, as already suggested by codero.

I'd like to add that it appears that, in fact, in German, "Bundestagsabgeordnete" are also called "Bundestag Delegierte." ("Die Mitglieder des Deutschen Bundestages sind zum Beispiel Delegierte des deutschen Volkes".) Perhaps the Germans here could correct me on this if I have it wrong.

But if it is accurate, it would not seem so inappropriate to translate Bundestagsabgeordnete as "delegates to the German Federal Parliament."

are also called "Bundestag Delegierte.

Not saying that it was never used but I've never heard that term.

If necessary, representatives.

I don't see how a German word that looks a bit like delegate justifies the use of the word delegate in cases where it is not normally used in English.

It seems to me that

"Die Mitglieder des Deutschen Bundestages sind zum Beispiel Delegierte des deutschen Volkes"

can legitimately be translated as

The members of the German Federal Parliament are, for example, delegates of the German people.

One could also say representatives of the German people, but technically that is not the same thing, so delegate is probably the better choice.

I don't like your English sentence and the German sentence hasn't had much support here either.

In any case, for the description, the OP asked for gewählter Vertreter, and elected representatives is much better than elected delegates. For the official term, member. #2, #5 MdB = Mitglied des Bundestags = Member of the Bundestag

You don't say why you don't like my English sentence nor which one you refer to. And what do you mean when you say the German one doesn't have "support"? It's from the German Wikipedia site (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delegierter).

I agree that representative is the best translation for "Vertreter," which is why I said that in #1.

Bob C., as far as I can tell, no one but you thinks delegate should have ever been suggested in this thread, either for the official term or for a description. Delegierte has not received much support either.

Man mag die Bundestagsabgeordnete als Delegierte in einem weiten Sinn betrachten, aber wir nennen sie nicht so. Die offizielle Bezeichnung für sie ist eben "Mitglieder des Bundstags".

"Mitglied des Deutschen Bundestages (MdB) ist die amtliche Bezeichnung für einen Abgeordneten im Deutschen Bundestag. Bundestagsabgeordneter ist eine weitere Bezeichnung. Die Abkürzung MdB wird als sogenannter Namenszusatz mit Komma hinter den Nachnamen gestellt, zum Beispiel Erika Mustermann, MdB.
(de.Wikipedia)

Der Begriff "Delegierte/r" kommt in den die Abgeordneten betreffenden Paragraphen des Grundgesetzes nicht vor. Bei dem Wort "Delegierte" denken wir eher an Parteitagsdelegierte u.ä.

PONS übersetzt übrigens "Bundestagsabgeordneter" auch mit "Member of the Bundestag".

Re #15.
I didn't spend much time looking at business cards, but at that time, M.C. was not so used, as it is not today, in general, AFAIK.


The contrast between your experience and mine regarding this (obviously minor) matter is interesting. I did happen to see a Congressman's card, and it used M.C.


Nevertheless, member (or M.C. or Member of Congress) is not used internally nor by the general public in the same way that member (MP, etc.) is used for members of parliamentary bodies in many other countries.

I cannot comment on the difference in use between M.C. and M.P., but--in case it might matter to someone who sees this thread in the future--I will point out that Representatives (at least) do refer to themselves as Members of Congress (see # 13), and the general public also refers to them as members of Congress.

Also, for the benefit of the same future viewer of this thread, I want to clarify your comments about Senators not calling themselves Members of Congress. I'm not as certain about that as you are. I think they regularly refer to themselves as being members of Congress--which they are, of course.

Mimo, thanks for that useful clarification.

So it is not completely wrong our out of place to refer to "Bundestagsabegeornnete" as Delegierte or delegates--clearly they are in fact that in the broader sense of the word--though that is not their proper or usual designation.

I don't read #25 as providing support for the use of the word delegate in English.

Senators are of course members of Congress, but they much prefer being called Senators, and certainly not Congressmen or Representatives.

Maybe: "He has been a member of Congress for fourteen years; after three terms [= 6 years total] in the House, he is now in his second term in the Senate."

Bundestagabgeordneter is a standard expression. Delegate to the Bundestag is a downright peculiar expression, hence it's inappropriate unless your aim is to befuddle your readers or explain (not translate) the meaning of Abgeordneter.

The fact that German has two ways of expressing the idea that someone is an elected member of the German lower house does not mean that there are two ways to do so in English too, neither does it mean that there should be. Just admit you were wrong, Bob.

Since #27 does not satisfy those with blood in their eyes, and for the benefit of Annelisa, if she should return, as well as for future visitors to this thread: I think that it may be better not to say delegate in the original sentence, though it obviously cannot be said to be altogether wrong.

It seems pretty clear from this discussion, especially from MiMo's contribution--the only one besides dude and Duden to contribute any useful information--that it would be better to use "Member of the Bundestag."

-the only one besides dude and Duden to contribute any useful information

Since I find that quite insulting, let me say that all necessary information was there in #2, which would have been #1 if Bob C., hadn't wasted our time. With luck, "future visitors to this thread" will well note #29.

Unfortunately, there has been no shortage of insulting and hurtful statements in this thread.

Yes, those who are always right and do not enjoy the process of getting at the truth find discussion a waste of time.

Some time might have been saved if it had not been flatly and categorically asserted at the outset that "delegate" is wrong. It took some time and work to correct that misstatement and arrive at a more balanced and intelligent understanding.

I nominate Bob C.'s #32 for this year's Monte Python Black Knight deluded denial award.

Black Knight: 'Tis but a scratch.
King Arthur: A scratch? Your arm's off.
Black Knight: No it isn't.
King Arthur: What's that, then?
Black Knight: [after a pause] I've had worse.

I also retire from this thread, unless someone other than Bob C. and Happy Warrior adds something new.

I didn't have more to say, but your unpleasant comment makes me willing to retrace the course of this thread (as it concerns us), if that is what you want.

I made an innocuous (and correct) comment in #7, which you promptly attacked in #8. Himalia provided indisputable evidence (#13) that you were wrong, and that should have been the end of it.

It is worth adding that the representatives elected from each US state to the US Congress are collectively called the "congressional delegation" from that state. In other words, as in Germany, although elected representatives are not usually thought of as delegates and are not referred to as such, they are delegates for all of that.

Yes, Bob. And for the sake of those who might not know, I want to emphasize that your reference to "representatives elected from each state" includes those in the House of Representatives and those in the Senate.

Good morning Happy W. Yes, that should not be overlooked.

In summary, don't use "delegate". Use member of the Bundestag

Diese Diskussion hat für mich eine Frage aufgeworfen:

Gibt es einen Unterschied zwischen
- delegate to -> jemand, der irgendwohin abgeordnet wurde (also in den Bundestag, um dort zu vertreten)
- delegate (of? from?) -> jemand, der irgendwoher abgeordnet wurde, also - z.B. eines seiner Mitglieder - vom Bundestag, um ihn woanders zu vertreten)?

- delegate to -> jemand, der irgendwohin abgeordnet wurde (also in den Bundestag, um dort zu vertreten

Rein gefühlsmäßig würde ich sagen, in diesem Kontext funktioniert das Wort nur als Substantiv. Als gewählter Vertreter ist man ein Delegierter/delegate seiner Wähler. Aber die Wähler delegieren den Vertreter nicht ins Parlament, sonder sie "wählen ihn als ihren Vertreter im Parlament"/"elect him as their representative in the parliament". Für mich hört sich jedenfalls falsch an, zu sagen "The voters delegated their representative to the parliament".

delegate (of? from?)

to be delegated by

Himalia hat im Grunde recht. The voters do not delegate their delegates to the Congress. Das wäre doppelt gemoppelt. They send their delegates (eigentlich: representatives, natürlich). Höchstens (und selten): They delegated Jubilation T. Cornpone to Congress.

Hier sollte aber nochmal unterstrichen werden, dass #38 recht hat: was das US Congress betrifft, sagt man für gewöhnlich nicht delegate sondern representative.

Delegate verwendet man hauptsächlich in Verbindung mit Kongressen, z.B., genauso wie der Bundestag Delegierte zur Bundesversammlung entsendet. Die Demokraten und Republikaner wählen delegates zu ihren conventions.

Um sicher zu gehen fängt man am besten mit dem Wörterbuch an, und zwar ist das Merriam-Webster maßgebend für den USA-Gebrauch: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/delegate .

Als Verb kann man Verantwortung delegieren: to delegate responsibility, usw.

Das Wort kann auch als Adjektiv funktionieren (delegated).

Wie gesagt kann man nicht delegated from sein. Nur: to be a delegate from California.

To be delegated to the convention by one's consitutuents scheint mir möglich zu sein, ist mir aber noch nie begegnet.

Danke, Himalia und Bob.
Was mich nun aber etwas irritiert, ist gerade Dein Beitrag in #1, Bob:

As delegate to the Bundestag (Federal Parliament), he is an elected representative of the people

Das war nämlich der Grund, weshalb ich gefragt hatte...

Warum denn irritiert?

Du hast nicht gesagt, dass du dich auf #1 beziehst; du hast nur ganz allgemein gesagt, dass "die Diskussion" eine Frage aufgeworfen hat. Drauf haben wir deine Frage (delegate to, delegate from) nicht als Substantiv verstanden, wie du es anscheinend gemeint hast, sondern als Verb und demzufolge deine Frage von diesem Gesichtspunkt her erläutert.

Wenn du deine Fragen nicht klar formulierst, kannst du dich nicht über unklare Antworten aufregen.

Also gut. Du willst wissen, ob man, beispielsweise, Cornpone is the delegate from New York sagen kann?

Ja.

Es war mir bisher selbst nicht klar, sber nach dieser Diskussion wäre meine Unterscheidung (im Deutschen) zwischen Abgeordneter und Delegierter:

Ein Abgeordneter ist für einen Zeitraum (Legislaturperiode) abgeordnet. Ein Delegierter ist für ein einzelnes/kürzeres Ereignis (Parteitag, Kongress, Bundesversammlung) delegiert.

Hallo Qual. Und was für ein Wal bist du?

Im Ernst: um auf eine Frage zurückzukommen, die oben erörtert wurde: also wie würdest du zwischen "Bundestagsabgeordneter" und "Mitglied des Bundestags" unterscheiden? Zwar sind diese ein und dasselbe, aber trotzdem gibt es zwei Wörter, und die Frage könnte von Belang sein, wenn zum Beispiel alle beide in einem Absatz oder Artikel vorkämen. Dann müßte der Übersetzer sich fragen, ob zwei entsprechene englische Termini zu finden wären.

Bundestagsabgeordneter ist der (zeitlich begrenzte) Beruf, MdB ist der Titel. Wäre jedenfalls mein Vorschlag.

Soeben stelle ich aber fest, dass die korrekte Anrede natürlich Herr/Frau Abgeordnete/r lautet. Hmmm... (In einem Brief würde man z.B schreiben "Sehr geehrte Frau Abgeordnete," und unterschreiben mit "Hans Müller, MdB").

Ich habe jetzt noch eine Weile nachgedacht, aber die Beruf - Titel- Unterscheidung ist die einzige, die Sinn macht, mMn.

Jetzt hat der künftige Übersetzer weiterhin die Qual der Wahl, sorry! :-)