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    Komma vor "in order to"

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    Hallo,

    ich würde gerne wissen ob ich in den folgenden zwei Beispielsätzen ein Komma vor "in order to" setzen muss:

    The goal of this thesis is to identify, analyze and compare the systems on the market, in order to determine which system is a reasonable alternative.

    The basic principles are explained in more detail, in order to determine the criteria of the system comparison.

    Vielen Dank im Voraus und beste Grüße!
    Verfasserdirtymike (1197673) 01 Jul. 17, 15:49
    Kommentar
    Kein Komma. Keinesfalls.

    Ein Komma aber vor deinem 'ob' in deiner Frage.
    #1VerfasserBraunbärin (757733) 01 Jul. 17, 15:50
    Kommentar
    Vielen Dank für die schnelle Antwort!
    #2Verfasserdirtymike (1197673) 01 Jul. 17, 15:53
    Kommentar
    Lieber immer mehrere Antworten abwarten... Öfter als es einem lieb ist, sind #1 posts zu korrigieren.
    Aber in diesem Fall ist es klar. Siehe auch die "Regeln" zur Kommasetzung, u.a. in x Fäden hier auf LEO. Man braucht Kommas im Englischen kaum.
    #3VerfasserBraunbärin (757733) 01 Jul. 17, 15:57
    Kommentar
    Note: "in order to" is completely correct, but you could totally drop the "in order" as being fluff/filler, and just use "to".
    #4Verfasser RES-can (330291) 01 Jul. 17, 16:02
    Kommentar
    Re the English sentences in #0.

    Yes, in each case do use the comma.

    Re the last half of the second English sentence: something is "off" there.
    #5VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 01 Jul. 17, 21:34
    Kommentar
    The comma here is optional. It's a matter of stylistic preference.
    "Man braucht Kommas im Englischen kaum" is an absurd assertion.
    Signed: A native English speaker.
    #6Verfasser John_2 (758048) 01 Jul. 17, 21:36
    Kommentar
    I can agree that the comma in the second English sentence might be optional (though advisable, IMO); but I think that--for the sake of clear meaning--the comma in the first sentence is fully necessary.
    #7VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 01 Jul. 17, 21:44
    Kommentar
    I tend to agree with you, HappyWarrior :)
    #8Verfasser John_2 (758048) 01 Jul. 17, 21:46
    Kommentar
    Thanks, John.
    #9VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 01 Jul. 17, 21:49
    Kommentar
    1) *sigh* Ich wusste, dass mein Satz missverstanden werden könnte. Ich wollte dirtymike, Neuzugang auf LEO, etwas ganz ganz Allgemeines sagen. Schon stürzen sich hier die üblichen drauf.
    2) Um das erste Komma (in der Aufzählung) geht es hier nicht, @Happy Warrior. Weder fragt der OP danach noch habe ich das Komma moniert; wie käme ich denn auch dazu.
    3) Dass das Komma vor 'in order to' (wie im Deutschen mit dem erweiterten Infinitiv mit 'zu' nötig) optional ist? Das hätte ich gern noch von anderen gehört.
    4) No need to send me private messages, John_2, that merely repeat what you wrote in #6. Thank you.
    #10VerfasserBraunbärin (757733) 01 Jul. 17, 21:54
    Kommentar
     Öfter als es einem lieb ist, sind #1 posts zu korrigieren.

    That's especially true when non-native speakers address style and and usage questions.

    #11Verfasser Jurist (US) (804041) 01 Jul. 17, 21:55
    Kommentar
    Das stimmt. Sag ich doch immer wieder selbst, seit Jahren. Nehme mich da doch nicht prinzipiell aus. ... Aber hier war es für mich eindeutig.

    Findest du das Komma vor 'in order to' denn richtig, Jurist?

    Und was sagen die anderen?
    #12VerfasserBraunbärin (757733) 01 Jul. 17, 21:59
    Kommentar
    Re #10.

    I'm not sure what you mean. My answer in #5 directly addressed the OP's question about the comma before "in order to."
    #13VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 01 Jul. 17, 22:05
    Kommentar
    #10: "Ich wollte dirtymike, Neuzugang auf LEO, etwas ganz ganz Allgemeines sagen" - and I am afraid you made a very incorrect assertion, both in general terms and in this particular case.
    "Schon stürzen sich hier die üblichen drauf" - If I am one of those people being accused of belonging to the group of native speakers who complain of non-natives making categorical statements about my language, then guilty as charged - and proud of it.

    "Aber hier war es für mich eindeutig" - what Jurist said.
    #14Verfasser John_2 (758048) 01 Jul. 17, 22:10
    Kommentar
    Sincere apologies, HW, ich *sigh* hatte da was falsch gelesen.
    #15VerfasserBraunbärin (757733) 01 Jul. 17, 22:11
    Kommentar
    No problem.
    #16VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 01 Jul. 17, 22:12
    Kommentar
    #12. I would probably omit the comma in a shorter, simpler, sentence.
    I went to the store [in order] to buy a loaf of bread. (Don't neglect #4.)
    #17Verfasser Jurist (US) (804041) 01 Jul. 17, 22:18
    Kommentar
    Indeed the example in #17 definitely does not need a comma.
    #18VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 01 Jul. 17, 22:21
    Kommentar
    #17:
    It won't work with the OP, though - and I disagree with #4.
    #19Verfasser John_2 (758048) 01 Jul. 17, 22:22
    Kommentar
    Another case of English speakers being divided by a common language (and I don't mean BE vs AE). I would not use a comma in front of "in order to".
    #20Verfasser patman2 (527865) 01 Jul. 17, 22:34
    Kommentar
    patman, do you believe the OP intends to say "the systems on the market in order to determine which system is a reasonable alternative"?

    In other words, are the systems on the market in order to determine which system is a reasonable alternative?

    I don't think so--and that's why the comma is necessary.
    #21VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 01 Jul. 17, 22:45
    Kommentar
    I agree with the Happy Warrior: comma in the first example of the original posting is mandatory; comma in the second example is advisable, and comma in #17 is incorrect.
    #22Verfasser Martin--cal (272273) 01 Jul. 17, 23:30
    Kommentar
    #21: Any sentence that is so long that the reference becomes ambiguous should be reformulated. Adding a comma makes what comes next seem like either an afterthought or a contrasting element. But others are free to punctuate as they see fit.
    #23Verfasser patman2 (527865) 02 Jul. 17, 00:02
    Kommentar
    @dirtymike
    I would tend to use a comma in (1) and omit it in (2), but the explanation would be rather lengthy.
     
    If finding one or more alternatives is the final goal, consider using "and" rather than "in order to".   .

    I agree that there is a problem with (2). I think the problem is the use of "determine", which (in this context) I would probably take to mean "find out", "ascertain". Depending on what you mean exactly, perhaps something like "define", "establish", "indicate", "show".
    I also suspect "criteria used when comparing the systems" would be better (or possibly just "system comparison criteria").
     
    I am also wondering how a single system is selected as a reasonable alternative (since more than one system might meet the criteria)  – and what you mean by "reasonable".
    #24VerfasserMikeE (236602) 02 Jul. 17, 01:07
    Kommentar
    #23:
    "Any sentence that is so long that the reference becomes ambiguous should be reformulated" - yes, where possible and appropriate.
    "Adding a comma makes what comes next seem like either an afterthought or a contrasting element" - absolutely not. Commas are an integral part of the language, fulfilling a variety of functions incl. making the sentence clearer.
    #25Verfasser John_2 (758048) 02 Jul. 17, 09:59
     
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