Advertising
LEO

It looks like you’re using an ad blocker.

Would you like to support LEO?

Disable your ad blocker for LEO or make a donation.

 
  •  
  • Subject

    Altkanzler

    Context/ examples
    Altkanzler Schröder
    Authorphilo15 Oct 06, 19:59
    Suggestionformer chancellor
    Sources
    s.u.
    Context/ examples
    s.u.
    Comment
    ex-chancellor
    #1Authorw15 Oct 06, 20:03
    Suggestionex-chancellor
    Comment

    Altkanzler Schröder


    German ex-chancellor Schroeder sues Bundestag to regain privileges

    Gerhard Schroeder, who has become increasingly derided in Germany for his pro-Russian views, has filed a suit against Germany's Bundestag lower house of parliament that seeks to reinstate his privileges as former chancellor, DPA reported.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-e...

    #2AuthorBubo bubo (830116) 12 Aug 22, 09:18
    Sources

    Rishi Sunak: Who is the former chancellor running to be the next PM?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politic...


    Rishi Sunak: Former chancellor bidding for top job

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51490893


    Former prime minister Tony Blair is to be knighted with the highest possible ranking, Buckingham Palace has said

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/15437...


    Former prime minister Tony Blair has called on both the UK and the EU to show 'maximum flexibility' in order to reach an agreement

    https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/to...

    Comment

    Just a few more examples to back up the version with "former", too, as there's no other thread on the word.

    #3AuthorCM2DD (236324)  12 Aug 22, 09:40
    Comment

    Former Chancellor [Schroeder] asked if, hypothetically speaking, Nord Stream 2 could be used in a crisis situation

    https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-u...

    #4AuthorBubo bubo (830116) 12 Aug 22, 09:53
    Comment

    #3: Are you saying that ex-chancellor has a different connotation?

    #5AuthorRominara (1294573) 12 Aug 22, 10:35
    Comment

    Aus dem Bauch raus würde ich sagen, dass "ex-chancellor und former chancellor" ähnliche Nuancen haben wie "Ex-Kanzler und Alt-Kanzler".

    Die Sprachebene ist für mich nicht ganz gleich, und "Ex-Titel" klingt für mich ein bisschen negativer als "Ehemaliger-Titel".


    Der Eindruck ist subjektiv, aber ich halte den Begriff "Former Chancellor" für etwas seriöser.

    #6Authorrufus (de) (398798) 12 Aug 22, 10:51
    Comment

    The quote in #2 uses both forms, with "ex-" presumably in the headline as it's shorter.

    I'm slightly biased against the overuse of "former", having heard it too many times in "the former East Germany" - where it's highly questionable :D - but these two versions sound pretty much the same to me.

    #7AuthorCM2DD (236324) 12 Aug 22, 11:00
    Comment

    #2: ...Germany's Bundestag lower house of parliament ...


    Interessant, dass hier der Begriff "lower house" verwendet wird. Vermutlich in Anlehnung an das englische "House of Commons", das ja das eigentliche Parlament ist, aber wohl historisch noch als dem "House of Lords" als untergeordnet angesehen wird. Die Briten mögen mich korrigieren, wenn ich hier falsch liege.


    Bei uns ist der Bundestag ja niemandem untergeordnet; der Bundesrat ist eher ein zusätzliches Gremium, das sicherstellen soll, dass die Belange der Länder repräsentiert sind.

    #8AuthorJesse_Pinkman (991550)  12 Aug 22, 12:01
    Comment

    re #6 et. al. : ... und dann haben wir noch den "früheren Kanzeler" ...

    #9Authorno me bré (700807) 12 Aug 22, 12:05
    Sources

    lower house

    The larger of two sections of a bicameral parliament or similar legislature, typically with elected members and having the primary responsibility for legislation.

    ‘the Bundestag or lower house of the German parliament’

    https://www.lexico.com/definition/lower_house

    Comment

    It's used a bit differently in the UK, but is how "Bundestag" is usually explained.

    #10AuthorCM2DD (236324) 12 Aug 22, 12:09
    Comment

     "the former East Germany" 


    That's hilarious. I only know the "ex-GDR".

    #11AuthorGibson (418762) 12 Aug 22, 12:19
    Comment

    #10: Aber woher kommt das "lower"? Was gemeint ist, ist schon klar.

    #12AuthorJesse_Pinkman (991550) 12 Aug 22, 12:20
    Comment

    Wir sagen ja auch "Ober-" und "Unterhaus" zu House of Lords/ Commons. So bastelt sich jeder etwas zurecht :-)

    #13AuthorGibson (418762) 12 Aug 22, 12:31
    Comment

    Wir verstehen im deutschen System den Bundestag nicht als Unterhaus. Das System kann aber so verstanden werden, weil der Bundesrat sich formal erst mit dem Gesetz beschäftigt, nachdem der Bundestag es beschlossen hat.

    #14Authormbshu (874725) 12 Aug 22, 13:02
    Comment

    The House of Lords did use to be the higher authority, and was a kind of Supreme Court, so presumably the phrase arose from that. Applying it to the German system is a simplification, but it's commonly used; not just Reuters coming up with something weird.

    #15AuthorCM2DD (236324) 12 Aug 22, 13:07
    Comment

    Or the distinction arises from the upper house having represented the upper classes (Lords, etc. => House of Lords), the lower house the not-so-upper classes (commons, commoners => House of Commons):

     

    Als Unterhaus oder zweite Kammer (englisch House of Commons oder lower house, französisch chambre basse) bezeichnet man in einem Zweikammersystem zumeist jene Kammer eines Parlamentes, die die allgemeine, von den Bürgern gewählte Volksvertretung darstellt (auch Bürger- oder Abgeordnetenkammer). Die ihr entgegenstehende, erste Kammer ist also das Oberhaus, das historisch meist eine Vertretung der Stände, wie Adel oder Klerus war und heutzutage oftmals eine Vertretung der Gliedstaaten (Länderkammer) ist.

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterhaus

     

    Als Oberhaus (englisch upper house, französisch chambre haute) bezeichnet man in einem Zweikammersystem zumeist jene Kammer eines Parlamentes, in der historisch die Vertretung der Oberschicht eines monarchistischen Staates, wie Stände, Adel und Klerus, tagte. Im Vereinigten Königreich besteht dies noch heute als House of Lords (Herrenhaus).

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberhaus

    #16AuthorBion (1092007) 12 Aug 22, 15:07
    Comment

    I greatly doubt that anyone would accept being called after the "lower classes", even if they were actually lower class, which is hardly the case, and certainly wasn't when the institution was brought in.

    #17AuthorCM2DD (236324) 12 Aug 22, 15:12
    Comment

    You have a point. On the other hand, I would say it's less a question of when the institution was brought in than of when the designations "lower house" and "upper house" began to be used.

    #18AuthorBion (1092007) 12 Aug 22, 15:18
    Comment

    The first use of "lower house" in the OED in the context of parliament is from 1523.


    There's also an entry for "lower house" with another meaning, with the first quote from 1553:

    With capital initials. In the Church of England: one of the two houses of the Convocation of either Canterbury or York, consisting of members of the clergy as opposed to bishops.


    The lower class is the working class; the lowest class.

    When women got the vote in 1918, that was also the first time that all men got the vote. Until then, you had to own property to vote. The lower class didn't get to vote until 1918. I can't see anyone equating MPs with the lower class. (Well, not openly!)

    #19AuthorCM2DD (236324)  12 Aug 22, 15:28
    Comment

    Right. The upper and lower authority certainly makes excellent sense. That those meanings no longer hold in modern bicameral systems needs hardly be emphasized. The G. "erste" and "zweite Kammer" seem also to be potentially misleading.

    #20AuthorBion (1092007) 12 Aug 22, 15:44
    Comment
    Just in case it still matters ...

    To me, former chancellor is idiomatic, but ex-chancellor isn't. For what it's worth.
    #21Authorhm -- us (236141) 12 Aug 22, 15:52
    Comment

    #22 - That was my gut-feeling, too, but I am no NES.


    Eine zusätzliche Überlegung, ohne dass man sie bei der Übersetzung berücksichtigen müsste: Sagt "Altkanzler" nicht eigentlich noch etwas mehr aus als "ehemaliger Bundeskanzler". Ist damit nicht die Vorstellung einer weiter bestehenden Verbundenheit mit dem Amt und der damit verbundenen Autorität und Würde verknüpft?

    Sehr vereinzelt wird für ehemalige Bundes- bzw. Reichskanzler im Englischen übrigens der Begriff "chancellor in retirement" verwendet (einmal für Merkel, einmal für Bismarck), der, wie ich finde, diesem Begriff und dieser unterlegten Bedeutung des Altkanzlers vielleicht besser gerecht wird, allerdings muss im vorliegenden Fall ja der hier angesprochene Aspekt nicht unbedingt berücksichtigt werden..

    #22AuthorRightSaidFred (1322814)  12 Aug 22, 19:08
    Comment

    #22: Sehr vereinzelt wird für ehemalige Bundes- bzw. Reichskanzler im Englischen übrigens der Begriff "chancellor in retirement" verwendet (einmal für Merkel, einmal für Bismarck), ...


    I think you've misunderstood the English. The headline for the reference to Merkel is "Success in retirement". It's not about a "chancellor-in-retirement" but about wishing the chancellor success in her retirement.


    I can't read the source text re Bismarck without signing up to the publication. However, I suspect from the Google entry "The Iron Chancellor in retirement" that the same applies as above, i.e. it is about the Iron Chancellor in his retirement.

    #23AuthorSpike BE (535528) 12 Aug 22, 19:37
    Comment

    ... I suspect from the Google entry "The Iron Chancellor in retirement" that the same applies as above, i.e. it is about the Iron Chancellor in his retirement.


    "The Iron Chancellor in retirement" seems to be the caption to a photo, i.e. Bismarck pictured after he had ceased to be Chancellor.

    (I don't know how I managed to see this, as I'm not signed up either.)

    #24AuthorHecuba - UK (250280) 12 Aug 22, 19:53
    Comment

    hm - Here I found an analogous expression "president in retirement", but strangely enough only about Trump, of all US presidents, and worded a bit strange, I think

    But the odds of becoming the traditional president in retirement that he never was while in office remain long.

    But probably one has to read it differently again, "in retirement" not as a part of an established collocation/term.


    Finde es aber fast eine schöne Idee, "chancellor in retirement" bzw. "president in retirement" einfach als Wortneuschöpfungen zu etablieren! 🙂

    #25AuthorRightSaidFred (1322814)  12 Aug 22, 20:06
    Comment

    OT und nicht wirklich wichtig, aber: RightSaidFred, irgendwie referierst du dauernd auf deine eigenen Posts, obwohl du ja vermutlich den vor dir meinst. Vielleicht die Zahl immer noch mal kontrollieren?

    #26AuthorGibson (418762) 13 Aug 22, 15:16
    Comment

    the traditional president in retirement that he never was while in office


    They are comparing what he's like in retirement to what he's like in office.

    In retirement, he's unlikely to be the traditional president that he never was in office.

    #27AuthorCM2DD (236324)  13 Aug 22, 15:20
    Sources

    It seems that ex-Chancellor Gordon Brown gave little thought to it when he sanctioned a new contract for GPs.

    https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/politics...

    Labour ex-chancellor Alistair Darling moved to protect the banks during the 2008 financial crisis.

    https://www.greenparty.org.uk/news/2011-06-24...

    The 52-year-old MP, who was first elected in 2010, rose through the ranks after being close to ex-Chancellor George Osborne.

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/...

    The government should not take a wealth tax off the table to rebalance the public coffers in the wake of coronavirus, ex-chancellor Philip Hammond has said.

    https://www.moneymarketing.co.uk/news/former-...

    A chancellor, Rishi Sunak, and an ex-chancellor, Sajid Javid, have done just that.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-62049705

    Comment

    Gone through a few ex-chancellors, and there are pages of UK hits for each. For "former chancellor" too, obviously - slightly more. "Ex-" is more likely to be in the headline, as it's shorter, but I've selected a few examples where it's used in the main text of articles.

    #28AuthorCM2DD (236324) 13 Aug 22, 15:38
     
  •  
  •  
  •  
  •  
  •  
  
 
 
  • Pinyin
     
  • Keyboard
     
  • Special characters
     
  • Lautschrift
     
 
 
:-) automatisch zu 🙂 umgewandelt