.. dass man "Salamonian sentence/ judgement/verdict" dazu sagt..

?

mit O.

Salomonian Judgement?

@nixnutze.......das ist eben die Frage. Meinst Du, ein native speaker versteht, was gemeint ist ? Lass uns mal abwarten was ein solcher dazu zu sagen hat.

es handelt sich um ein ärtzeurteil, ich dachte wir befinden uns im rechtsenglischen.. sschon das zweite mal heute, ich sollte mich lieber ausloggen hahaha..

wie wär's dann mit Salomonian Findings?

qnixnutze.......macht nichts.........bleib ruhig da.....das passiert jedem 'mal ;-)

sorry.......war ein Typo....wollte natürlich @nixnutze schreiben ;-)

Solomonic judgement - (according to an English-speaking lawyer)

I would call that "a tie-breaking third opinion."

keine ahnung.. bin auch mal gespannt auf reaktionen.. eigentlich müssten sie es verstehen, auch wenn sie es vorher noch nie so gehört haben, wie ich z.b. das deutsche equivalent salomonmnisches urteil noch nie gehört ha. schlicht und ergreifend deshalb, weil ich nicht mit dieser fachsprache zu tun hab..

aber die grammatische stilebene lässt diese "-ean" endung eigentlich immer zu, soweit ich weiß.. z.b. Gricean maxims (die maxime des linguisten namens grice).. dabei fällt mir gerade auf, ich glaube das suffix lautet IMMER -ean.

habe mich mit -ian vertan..

or simply "a real Solomon" if you like.

@ ML: Hattest Du LEO diesbezüglich ausgereizt?

Dictionary: Salomon*

Passt zu Helmis Vorschlägen . . .

@Helmi.......so what you mean is : she expected a real Solomon ???? Can't be !?

@nixnutze....Du, das ist keine Fachsprache.......diesen Begriff kannst Du im Deutschen doch in jedem Zusammenhang benutzen.

z.B. Mutter sagte, nixnutze darf fernsehen, Vater war dagegen........also wartete Nixnutze auf das salomonische Urteil der Großmutter

also dann doch nicht "findings" für ärtzeurteil.. ich dachte, es sei ein medizinischer begriff, *lalalalaaaaa*

ups

@Daddy.....hatte ich, lieber Daddy.....mir würde NIE einfallen, dies nicht zu tun.Sonst kriegt man ja von Dir eins über die Nase - so wie Du's grade versucht hast (wenn auch äußerst sanft) ;-)

Was mich interessiert ist, ob dieses Idiom im Englischen existiert - und diese Zusammmmensetzung gab es leider im dict. nicht.

Ja MunichLady, diesen idiomatischen Ausdruck gibt es auch im Englischen.

@ioreth.........vielen Dank !!

Wiki:

Wisdom of Solomon

One of the qualities most ascribed to Solomon is his wisdom. One account, that of Solomon suggesting to divide a baby in two to determine its real mother, is from the Old Testament of the Bible in the book of Kings. In this often-quoted passage, two prostitutes came before Solomon to resolve a quarrel about which of them was the true mother of a baby. (The other's baby died in the night and each claims the surviving child as hers.) When Solomon suggests dividing the living child in two with a sword, the true mother is revealed to him because she is willing to give up her child to the lying woman rather than have the child killed. Solomon then declares the woman who shows the compassion is the true mother and hands the child to her.

Then the king said, "Bring me a sword." So they brought a sword for the king. He then gave an order: "Cut the living child in two and give half to one and half to the other." - 1 Kings 3 (New International Version)

Die Frage war, ob Englische Muttersprachler das verstehen wuerden, und meine Antwort lautet: nicht alle wuerden sofort verstehen, worum es geht, aber viele schon.

Das Beispiel, das ich kannte, war mit dem Baby (oben).

Das Problem mit diesem Beispiel ist, ich denke an eine etwas harte Art, etwas zu entscheiden, wenn ich an Solomon denke. Und ob ein Arzt jemanden zu etwas raet gehoert (fuer mich) nicht in die selbe Kategorie. Aber es ist schon klar, dass es ums Entscheiden geht. (like a tie-breaker in this case)

Ob es genau Solomonic heisst, kann ich leider nicht sagen, aber ich wuerde das vor allen anderen nehmen.

how about: she expected an opinion/advice worthy of King Solomon.

"Solomonian" might be grammatically possible, but it sounds very unidiomatic to my ears. We usually include the "King" part when we talk about this kind of wisdom. ;-)

@Courtney.......Thanks a lot. Ja, ich kenne die Geschichte auch - und da findet diese dt. Wendung ja auch ihren Usprung.

Wenn Du sagst, es würden vielleicht nicht alle verstehen, implizierst Du damit, dass nur Leute, die gut gebildet sind, es verstehen würden ? Ist wohl so, oder ?

The judgement of Solomon is a metaphorical expression for a decision which destroys the subject matter of a dispute rather than allowing either disputing party to share in it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgement_of_Solomon

The only expression I'm familiar with is Judgement of Solomon.
I've never personally heard of Solomonic Decision until now.
However, despite the Wiki definition, I still associate the "judgement of Solomon" with Bible stories of a baby being potentially cut in half, so I like wpr's suggestion of "an opinion/advice worthy of King Solomon".

I agree with Anne here, regarding the questionable wisdom of cutting a baby in half. I'm also not sure you could simply apply this sort of wisdom to medical advice. I would, instead, suggest something like "an independent third opinion."

@dude.......you mean like what Helmi says in #8 ??

I agree with dude, Helmi, Courtney, wpr, and Anne. The adjective is Solomonic (not Solomonian or salmon or anything else), and there is such a thing as rendering a Solomonic judgment (or perhaps decision, though that sounds less likely to me too). But to my ears it doesn't quite fit in the example sentence given, because there's nothing to suggest that this decision is particularly wrenching to both sides, or that the final arbiter is unusually wise and powerful, as in the biblical story.

@ML: I don't think it's so much a tie-breaking decision as another, independent source of information with which to make up one's mind. Depending on the severity of the case, one might even consider additional sources/opinions (and none of them Solomonic). ;-)

OED:

"Characteristic of Solomon; suggestive of the wisdom of Solomon."

"1857 DICKENS Dorrit I., "This sentiment, in itself almost Solomonic." 1861 Sat. Rev. 30 Nov. "That Solomonic wisdom which is better than..silver." 1876 Tinsley's Mag. "With a Solomonic shake of her head."

Many people here do not like the OED, but above is it's Solomonic pronouncement, for what it's worth.

Lady: You must translate "salomonische Urteil." The simplest solution is to translate it as "Solominic judgment." It is (as already pointed out above and as supported by the most authoritative dictionary in the English language) widely understood and completely idiomatic.

Bob C., I appreciate your comments, but I would be a little careful about making such pronouncements about what is or is not "the most authoritative dictionary in the English language". Do you mean BE or AE, just for starters? But that's way off topic and I don't expect an answer. :-)

The example you cite is from English literature 150 years ago. Yes, if you want to sound like Dickens, use "Solomonic judgement". If you want to sound like normal English of today, I would use something else. And as was already stated, I'm not sure it even fits in the given context.

wpr, I find the anti-OED prejudice appalling.

It is the most authoritative dictionary in U.S. and British English, the standard for all.

It is not doubt a symptom of the decline of the education system that so many today prefer Google and even LEO to this fine reference source.

Please let me know if in your superior sources you find any definition that differs in any significant way from what I cited.

OK ;-)

wpr: forgive me for going off on you. You may know, however, that you are not the first to raise these exact questions in response to my quoting the OED. That is the reason for my exasperation. Please, don't take it personally.

It might actually be useful to pursue these questions here or on another occasion (separate thread?), since they are perennial and of no small importance.

Bob, no prob. I don't get offended that easily, and to let you in on something between you, me and the fencepost, I don't take anything at LEO that seriously. :-) I do try to be as helpful as possible and sometimes I'm even successful. ;-)
I have absolutely nothing against the Oxford dictionaries - an excellent source. But not the only one.
If you want to start a thread in the Sprachlabor on the relative merits of this or that dictionary, by all means do so. It would be interesting. Maybe this topic has already been discussed before, though. I don't know.

wpr, I don't want to give the impression that I am biased against LEO. I think it, Google, Wikipedia, and other popular sources most certainly have value and an important place, and I make appropriate use of them.

LEO, in particular, is invaluable as a place where one can get opinions on language, translating questions, current slang, and hear from practicing translators, native speakers, and people with diverse experience.

@Bob C / wpr....sorry for having caused such a heavy discussion by putting up that "salomonisches Urteil" which one of my students used in her essay. In the course of this discussion I have realized that she used this term in the wrong way anyway. I should have known, because I do know where this German idiom comes from, but I just was too much concentrated on the term itself and forgot about checking if it fits in this context or not. So I'll have to mark a mistake anyway....
But, indeed, I agree with you, Bob C ,in so far that here in Germany they have told us for decades that the OED is the best dict. So thank you very much for pointing out what you found there - I know that I should have consulted the OED before starting all this, but on the other hand I like the result of this discussion because it helped me anyway, as I just pointed out.

Ich muß Anne(gb) zustimmen, alles andere ist zumindest sehr unüblich, wenn nicht völlig falsch.

Hab gerade noch in Google nachgeschaut, ist recht eindeutig:

ungefähr 179 für "Solomonic judgement "
ungefähr 18.800 für "judgement of Solomon"
ungefähr 12.600 für "The judgement of Solomon"

Whether to use Google's 179 or 18,800 or 12,600 is not a question of giving in to numbers but one of looking at the language and making a decision on the basis of stylistic considerations.

On that basis I have no problem at all about preferring "Solomonic judgement".

"She went to a third doctor ... expecting him to pronounce (a) Solomonic judgement on the matter."

Writing a stylistically self-respecting sentence using "judgement of Solomon" is not so easy in my opinion.

I still think "Solomonic judgement" is inappropriate in this context. IMHO, you don't ask a doctor for this when you're possibly facing an operation.

Munich: no need to apologize for anything. Many useful points were made and the thread will be there for future use.

DW: I must say, I'm not sure I see how this particular google poll (#34) advances this discussion.

For the sake of completeness and to avoid misunderstanding, "Solomonian" is also acceptable according to the OED: "Solomonian: Of, pertaining or relating to, characteristic of, King Solomon; Solomonic."

Whether one takes "Solomonian" or "Solomonic" is a matter of personal taste, I think, with "Solomonic" possibly the more common (here it might be interesting, though not conclusive, to do a Google poll).

Dude (#36), agree entirely with your second sentence.

As far as I understood it though the original enquiry was for a translation of the phrase "salomonisches Urteil". MünchnerDame's putting even the German phrase in square brackets complicates things. But I still take it she's looking for an expression as equivalent for it when she e.g. writes to a friend about a mutual acquaintance who is considering whether to have e.g. her gall bladder removed. Maybe I'm wrong.
I'm NOT suggesting anyone would go to a third doctor and say "Now give me your Solomonic judgement, please". But writing or speaking about such events one could well use it.

@Phillipp........you mentioned those square brackets.......this happened unintentionally, because back then I didn't know, yet, how to create bold letters. As you can see, I didn't succeed when I tried.......and because of this I asked in "Betrifft LEO" how to do it.......and learned that that is more difficult for people using IE7 than for those using different browsers.

To put it in a nutshell....those square brackets don't have any special meaning.

Apart from this you may have a look at my own comment #32.......and you'll find out that it wasn't even me who wanted to use this term.....I just needed to know if that girl had made a mistake or not.......and now I know

I think I agree with phillip, if I understand him correctly: the German that we are being asked to help translate is "Daraufhin ging sie zu einem dritten Arzt desselben Fachgebiets und erwartete von ihm das salomonische Urteil."

I should think the translation would be "She then went to a third specialist in the same field and expected him to deliver a Solomonic judgment."

As translators we need not concern ourselves overly much with whether the German original ought to have used this expression. It did, so we translate it.

@MunichLady #39: Ah, I gladly stand, sit and lie corrected. I shall also be paying a visit to Betrifft LEO to find out about how to create at least square brackets! Thanks for the tip.