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  • Subject

    "Papa"

    [coll.][Süddeutschland]
    Sources
    Somebody told me that "papa" in English is an old-fashioned way of calling father and nowadays only the upper class uses it. He argues that "Papa" in German should be translated into "Dad", instead of "papa." I felt confused because "Papa" is used in German so often in daily life. Somebody help me with this translation?
    AuthorEugenie18 Jun 08, 12:43
    Ergebnisse aus dem Wörterbuch
    papader Papa  pl.: die Papas
    pader Papa  pl.: die Papas
    dad [coll.]der Papa  pl.: die Papas
    poppa [coll.] [fam.] (Amer.)der Papa  pl.: die Papas [coll.] [fam.]
    daddy [fam.]der Papa  pl.: die Papas [fam.]
    pop [coll.] (Amer.)   - fatherder Papa  pl.: die Papas [fam.]
    king vulture [ZOOL.]der Königsgeier  pl.   Lat.: Sarcoramphus papa   [Ornithology]
    SuggestionDad/daddy (bis 10.Jahre alt)
    #1Author suziq (315879) 18 Jun 08, 12:44
    Comment
    I don't agree with your age limit Suziq. I called my father 'Daddy' when I was 20 for instance and I think both Dad and Daddy are used by adults too. But Papa and Mama in English are definitely not what most people call their parents.
    #2AuthorGulliva (411965) 18 Jun 08, 12:58
    Comment
    Ich würde eher sagen:

    Daddy bis ca. 10 Jahre alt, danach Dad (evtl. bis ca. 45 Jahre alt, die vorherige Generation hat eher "father" gesagt).
    #3Author DW (EN) (241915) 18 Jun 08, 13:06
    Comment
    Depends on the social class, too. Charles Windsor calls his mother "mother" and his father "father".
    #4AuthorBarnie1 (317537) 18 Jun 08, 13:13
    Comment
    When I refer to my father when talking to someone else, I use the word "dad". When I talk to my father I still use the word "daddy" and I am a lot older than 10 ;o).
    #5AuthorEilean (454348) 18 Jun 08, 13:19
    SuggestionPapa and mama
    Sources
    But most readers will understand that Germans use "papa" and "mama". In this context, it sounds European, not archaic. It would sound very weird to me to hear "daddy" and "mommy" used by German children in translation.

    Take "Fiddler on the Roof." While the characters otherwise speak standard modern American English (apart from a few Yiddisms), the daughters say "papa" and "mama". It would be strange for them to say "dad" and "mom".
    #6AuthorRobNYNY18 Jun 08, 13:25
    Comment
    More or less the same here. When I refer to my father when talking to my peers, I tend to use the word "dad", when I refer to my him when talking to people who know him I use his christian name, and when I address him call him "father", and I am also a lot older than 10 ;-)
    #7Author DW (EN) (241915) 18 Jun 08, 13:26
    Comment
    I would agree with RobNYNY, after consideration...as "Papa/Mama" would also indicate the cultural difference ie that Germans are talking and not American/British or others.

    @Eilean - I know that some adults call their parents "Mummy/Daddy" after the age of ten but it isn't the "rule" and is usually considered quite twee - no offence intended. I remember one of my friends at school used to call her parents Mummy and Daddy, and even today, after over 20-odd years it is something we remember as it was quite unusual, and my sister-in-law at nearly 50 also says "Mummy" and it always gets commented on.
    #8Author suziq (315879) 18 Jun 08, 17:05
    SuggestionWhat about the use of "old man"?
    Sources
    I heard people calling their dad that, what is that about?
    #9AuthorThe Analyst18 Jun 08, 17:12
    Comment
    Well my bf refers to his father as "my old man" when he is talking about him, but he would not address him as "old man".
    #10AuthorEilean (454348) 18 Jun 08, 17:13
    Comment
    That is fairly typical in the north of England, although not exclusively.
    #11Author DW (EN) (241915) 18 Jun 08, 17:13
    Comment
    @suziq: But is your sister-in-law talking to or about her mother when calling her "mummy" ? When I speak to my father in private I do address him as "daddy" but like I said not when in public or when talking about him to someone else. That might be the reason why people have never commented on me calling my father "daddy" as they don't know it. Well now you all know, so feel free to comment :oP.
    #12AuthorEilean (454348) 18 Jun 08, 17:17
    Comment
    My mother addresses her mother as "Mummy", but when she talks about her to other people (with the exception of her sister) it's "my mother" or "meine Mutter". When my grandfather was still alive she called him "Daddy". In conversations with my grandmother or my aunt she will also refer to him as "Daddy", otherwise, again, it's "my father" or "mein Vater".

    I call my parents "Mama" and "Papa" (pronounced the German way, i.e. with the stress on the first syllable), and these are also the names I usually use in conversations with my siblings. (Except for the situations in which I say "Weißt Du, was Deine Mutter heute gemacht hat?" followed by some outrageous story ;o))

    Otherwise, I always refer to them as "meine Mutter" and "mein Vater", or "my mother" and "my father" if I'm speaking English. I wouldn't dream of referring to them by their christian names even to people who know them very well and with whom they have been on first-name terms for ages.
    Oh, and my mother is obviously a lot older than 10, and so am I ;o)
    #13Author Dragon (238202) 18 Jun 08, 17:21
    Comment
    Well, when it comes to my mother, I almost exclusively use her christian name as she hated being called "mum" or "mummy" and complained bitterly if I called her that. But that was an exceptional situation.
    #14Author DW (EN) (241915) 18 Jun 08, 17:39
    Comment
    @Eilean: re: sister-in-law - yes, she uses "Mummy" when talking about her. (and I can't comment on your use...you are reading...I'll have to do it when you are not "listening" ;-))
    #15Author suziq (315879) 18 Jun 08, 18:01
    SuggestionDad
    Sources
    As previously stated Papa is only used generally by the upper classes in the U.K. However daddy tends to be used by either upper classes no matter what age the person, whereas Dad is used throughout the country by all ages and classes. Father is also acceptable.
    Comment
    Hope that helps
    #16AuthorDrouchov18 Jun 08, 18:16
    Comment
    To me 'mama' is pretty dated and 'papa' even more so. Yes, they seem right in Fiddler on the Roof, but that's because it's set in a historical period, not in the modern day.

    If you don't want to use 'mom' (BE 'mum') and 'dad,' I would just go for 'mother' and 'father.'
    #17Author hm -- us (236141) 18 Jun 08, 20:26
    Comment
    OTOTOT:

    Wird eigentlich 'mom' (AE) und 'mum' (BE) gleich ausgesprochen?
    #18AuthorGermknödel (Ö) (427811) 18 Jun 08, 20:37
    Comment
    Well, do believe me, "old man" does not translate to what LEO has on it:

    Dictionary: old+man

    but (more) to what the German version of it (Alter Herr) yields:

    governor (Brit.) = alter Herr . . .
    #19AuthorDaddy18 Jun 08, 22:17
    Comment
    @GermGermGermknödel: *wink* Not to our ears. But the difference is one of the ones that's hard for German speakers and hard to represent in German spelling. The sounds aren't exactly the same, but it's more or less like this:

    mom - /~momm, ~mahm/
    mum - /~mamm/

    Try the audio files at Merriam-Webster (LEO i-link) or American Heritage (bartleby.com) to hear both words in AE. ('Mum' is also short for 'chrysanthemum,' so it's in AE dictionaries too.) I don't know if there's a BE audio file in LEO yet; someone is adding them word by word.
    #20Author hm -- us (236141) 18 Jun 08, 22:22
    Comment
    h-h-hm, h-h-hm - :o) *wildzurückwink* Danke für den Hinweis. Ich habe mir die Aussprache auf dem LEO-Knopf angehört und es klingt ganz anders!? Könntest Du den einmal probieren?

    Das ist so wie:

    mom - mohmmmm

    mum - mahmmmm

    PS.: die Russen haben traumhaft gespielt! Nastrovje! (sp?)
    #21AuthorGermknödel (Ö) (427811) 18 Jun 08, 22:45
    Comment
    Still call my mother "Mommy" and called my father "Daddy" up until the day he died - well over 10 :-) Could be my father's "fault" as we tried out Dad on him in our early teens, and he would not stand for it.
    #22Author Carly-AE (237428) 18 Jun 08, 22:55
    Comment
    Still quite OT:

    Well, okay, yes, LEO does now have the BE versions. The 'mum' one sounds okay to me. The 'mom' one does have a shade of a long O to it, and it's very British; it might be a little less representative. (Added to the fact that it's not really a BE word in the first place.) I'm not sure why 'mom' is so clipped and 'mummmmm' is so drawn-out, either.

    But, you know, it's just hard to read an isolated word and have it come out sounding 100% natural, like a model pronunciation. You start getting self-conscious and second-guessing yourself. The LEO word list is enormous, and the LEO reader for BE is a normal person, not a machine, so he may not have wanted to re-record each word half a dozen times to make the final version as perfect as possible.

    The good news is that it's not hugely important, as long as you make some difference between the two words. Especially A and O vowels can vary a lot even within BE and within AE. To get an idea of how wide the range can be, you could still listen to the audio files at Merriam-Webster or AHD or somewhere too, maybe even copy all the examples and then play them back to back.

    Or possibly you could find a helpful native speaker who would demonstrate for you on the phone, or record little audio files and e-mail them to you. (-:


    #23Author hm -- us (236141) 19 Jun 08, 02:38
    Comment
    Bear in mind, of course, that there are also regional variations in pronounciation throughout the UK and the U.S. In London, 'mum' sounds entirely different to 'mum' in Birmingham or in the home counties or the west country or Scotland (where it sounds more like 'mam').
    #24Author DW (EN) (241915) 19 Jun 08, 08:45
    Comment
    A bit OT: Ivy-League preppie used to be marked by calling one's parents "mater" and "pater". It always sounded pretentious to me when I heard it. I don't know if this is still true, since I don't move in those circles.

    My mother at 86 is "Mom"; my father was "Dad" until his death. That's when speaking with the person or with close friends who know them; otherwise it's "my mother" and "my father".

    Other American variants include: Ma and Pa (usually rural, Midwestern and Southern); Pop; Pops; Pappy (think of Popeye the Sailor); Pap.
    #25Author Robert -- US (328606) 19 Jun 08, 09:01
    Comment
    @suziq: RE: sister-in-law.. that indeed is a bit unusual. I would not do that, no wonder people comment on her. (I'm not listening anymore after 5.30 German time, ;o)).
    #26AuthorEilean (454348) 19 Jun 08, 09:56
    SuggestionMum or Mummy
    Sources
    I refer to my mother as mummy as that is what she prefers me as her son to call her
    #27AuthorNick21 Jun 08, 01:53
    Comment
    My sisters and I always called our parents Mummy and Daddy, and did so until my father died (when I was 19). But even if he were still alive, I would still call him Daddy, I'm sure. It annoys me a bit that my sisters now refer to him as "Dad" all the time, because we never called him that, but I suppose they think it sounds "cooler" (now that we are also well over 10, or multiples thereof). I don't care if anyone teases me about that now, but we were teased about it sometimes at school (primary school, so even at under 10!), but then those kids would tease us about anything. Now I call my mother "Mother" (as that is what she prefers to be called; I think it makes her feel genteel!) and I don't like calling her "Mum" - to me that sounds too mundane. But I often refer to her as "Mum" when talking to my sisters (because that is what they say).

    Incidentally my father (b. 1923) called his mother "Mama" and his father "Poppa". But he was of Irish descent (both parents came directly from Ireland)- perhaps that was the usual way of addressing one's parents in Ireland at that time.

    My maternal grandfather (b. 1911) called his parents "Mother" and "Father".
    #28AuthorMary nz/a (431018) 21 Jun 08, 02:28
    Comment
    @ Eileen, no. 26: "... not listening after 5:30 German time" - LOL, that would be a.m., not p.m., hehe! - For some people that would mean: stop listening before you wake up... Ooooh, you're soooo right here!!!


    Meine Mutter ist "Mama", wenn ich mit ihr rede. Üblicher Weise auch noch, wenn ich mit meiner Halbschwester rede. Bei allen anderen Gesprächen (auch mit Familienangehörigen) ist sie "meine Mutter".

    Die "anderen Gespräche" umfassen übrigens auch die (kurzen) Dialoge mit dem Mann meiner Mutter (sie heirateten, als ich 15 war, und der Typ mag mich heute noch genauso wenig wie ich ihn).

    Meine Großmutter ist (bei Gesprächen innerhalb der Familie) "die Mutti". LOL, ja, MIT dem Artikel, sofern sie nicht selbst angesprochen wird. Ich persönlich spreche sie mit "Oma" an. "Mutti" kommt einfach daher, dass ihre Kinder (also meine Mutter etc.) sie so nannten... Zu der Zeit (1940+) war "Mutti" durchaus noch üblich; heute ist es wohl in den meisten Gegenden Deutschlands fast verschwunden - angesichts des U und des harten, doppelten T kaum verwunderlich (und kein Verlust, wie ich meine). Es klingt einfach nicht so weich und vertraulich wie "Mama" oder "Papa". Außerdem: diese Laute gehen schon einem Säugling leicht über die Lippen, also muss nicht mal viel erlernt werden. :-)

    IM Ernst: Nach meiner Erfahrung ist es völlig normal, dass deutsche "Kinder" (gleich, welchen Alters) ihre Mutter mit "Mama" bzw. ihren Vater mit "Papa" ansprechen.

    Kaum jemand wird seine Eltern mit "Vater/Mutter" anreden. In machen Dialekten mag es noch existieren, doch meist - viel zu förmlich!

    Es ist aber auch normal, unter "Fremden" von "meine Mutter/mein Vater" zu reden, also bei allen, die NICHT zu dem gehören, was man selbst zur "innersten Familie" zählt. Das deckt sich doch auch mit dem, was die meisten Englischsprachigen hier gesagt haben: "Mummy(Mommy)/Daddy" privat bzw. im Familienkreis, sonst "my mother/my father".

    Ich glaube, die Formulierung deutet einfach auf die Nähe (oder eben Nicht-Nähe) zum Gesprächspartner hin. - Und das ist doch auch absolut normal! Schließlich läßt man
    nicht jeden gleich an den persönlichsten Dingen teilhaben! Eine "liebevolle", intime Anrede wie "Mama" bzw. "Papa" (oder Mummy/Mommy und Daddy) benutzt man einfach nicht vor einem Außenstehenden... Ich halte es für einen ganz normalen (evolutionären) Schutzmechanismus, der eben dafür sorgt, dass wir Menschen nicht überall gleich ohne Zögern alle "Schwächen" präsentieren.

    Total OT: Interessante Frage... Wenn jemand vor Fremden sorglos "Mama/Papa" bzw. "Mummy(Mommy)/Daddy" sagt... Ist das ein Zeichen, dass seine Selbstschutzmechanismen nicht funktionieren - oder ist derjenige im Gegenteil sehr, sehr stark (bzw. glaubt, es zu sein)?
    #29AuthorIgel21 Jun 08, 03:49
    Comment
    Are their Germans who say Mutti and Vati?
    #30Author ion1122 (443218) 21 Jun 08, 04:25
    Comment
    @igm: In general, yes, most of us don't call our parents 'Mother' or 'Father' except for 'my mother/father' when talking to other people.

    But what some of the English speakers were trying to get at, I think, is that there's a difference in register between

    Mommy/Mummy & Daddy ~= Mami & Papi
    (more childish, though sometimes still used by adults, mostly women)

    and

    Mom/Mum & Dad ~= Mama & Papa
    (the default in the modern day)

    and

    Mama/Papa, Ma/Pa ~= Mutti & Vati
    (now distinctly old-fashioned)

    I'm not sure I have the German equivalents exactly right, and again, there are just differences from family to family, but in general, Mommy/Daddy seem less all-purpose than Mama/Papa, if I understand correctly.
    #31Author hm -- us (236141) 21 Jun 08, 04:34
    Comment
    Sorry, not igm, Igel. My bad.
    #32Author hm -- us (236141) 21 Jun 08, 04:35
     
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