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Selbstverständlich habe ich innerhalb offener Frist gegen die Entscheidung berufen.

25 Antworten   
Richtig?

As a matter of course I filed an appeal against the decision in due time

Kommentar
Ich suche nach einer eleganten Formulierung. Danke!
VerfasserSaskia25 Nov 10, 17:05
Vorschläge

As a matter of course

-

it goes without saying



Kommentar
Gefühlte Übersetzung
#1Verfasseruli25 Nov 10, 17:11
Kommentar
Ist "it goes without saying" nicht eher eine saloppe Formulierung?
#2VerfasserSaskia25 Nov 10, 17:17
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Doesn't the OP mean this?

Of course I timely filed the appeal.
#3VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 13 Jun 18, 09:16
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Any of these or a mix, depending on context:

Of course I appealed the decision before the deadline.

Of course I filed an appeal against the decision on time.

Naturally, I filed an appeal within the permitted/allotted period of time.

@3: "I timely filed the appeal" isn't correct English. "I filed the appeal in a timely manner" would be ok, but timely just means quickly, not necessarily within a certain deadline.
#4VerfasserMarie_53 (1159313) 14 Jun 18, 12:27
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I'm sorry to have to tell you that you are mistaken. The sentence in #3 is perfectly good English. It is used all the time by the very people who file appeals for a living.

And you seem to be among those who think that more words are better.
#5VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 14 Jun 18, 12:30
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I wouldn't quite go as far as Marie_53 in saying that "I timely filed the appeal" isn't correct English, but neither would I go so far as to say that it's "perfectly good English". It's OK-ish English, and in certain circles, i.e. those who file appeals for a living, may be very frequently used, but IMHO any of the alternatives offered in #4 are better English, at least better British English.

Though I must say, I think timely does say something other than quickly, and does relate to a deadline. After all, one can do a thing quickly and still miss a deadline; this is hardly doing it in a timely manner.
#6Verfasseramw (532814) 14 Jun 18, 13:47
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amw, I would be interested to know on what basis the sentence in #3 is less than perfectly good English?
#7VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 14 Jun 18, 14:13
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A very brief search of cases decided by the United States Supreme Court shows that the Court often uses the words "timely filed." Some in the UK might not think that the written opinions of the United States Supreme Court represent good English, but I do--and I am not alone in that view.

Of the many cases available from my search, I have chosen this example statement from Houston v. Lack, 487 U.S. 266, 278-279 (1988). I have chosen this particular example because the opinion itself quotes from the Court's own rule that uses "To be timely filed . . .."

Here is the excerpt:

That is why we adopted the proviso in Rule 28.2 of our own Rules, which the Court unexpectedly invokes in support of its position. Rule 28.2 reads:

 "To be timely filed, a document must be received by the Clerk within the time specified for filing, except that any document shall be deemed timely filed if it has been deposited in a United States post office or mailbox, with first-class postage prepaid, and properly addressed to the Clerk of this Court, within the time allowed for filing, and if there is filed with the Clerk a notarized statement by a member of the Bar of this Court, setting forth the details of the mailing, and stating that to his knowledge the mailing took place on a particular date within the permitted time." [Emphasis in the original.]


It is my opinion that the sentence in #3 represents perfectly good English--at least for any user of AE. I have no idea whether or not it is acceptable in BE. If it is unacceptable in BE, then we really do have quite distinct languages, including different grammar.
#8VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 14 Jun 18, 14:38
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Re #7: On the basis of 52 years of exposure to the language, and about 50 years of using it.

I suspect this could well be a difference between AE and BE (between which there are certainly other grammatical differences too), or possibly between English as used in general writing and conversation and English uses in the legal community.

I wouldn't say it's unacceptable in BE, just a bit iffy, and if proofreading, I would correct timely filed to filed in a timely manner, or some such. Presumably my problem is that I see timely strictly as an adjective and am dubious about its use as an adverb. It could be that AE generally shows more flexibility in the adverbial use of adjectives than BE does.
#9Verfasseramw (532814) 14 Jun 18, 15:01
Kommentar
Re #5: The sentence in #3 is perfectly good English - I'm not sure about that. While I think it's perfectly good Legalese, I wouldn't necessarily put that on the same level as good English. They can frequently appear to be different languages, imo.
#10Verfasserdude (253248) 14 Jun 18, 15:11
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Are you saying that because you don't use "timely filed," it is not up to par? Or do you have a substantial basis for saying that it is not good English?

And should the disinterested reader here believe you, or the dimwits on the Supreme Court?

The words "timely filed" are not legal words. They are English words. "Res judicata" (for example) is a legal term; "timely filed" is just regular English.

No offense intended to you or amw or Marie 53, but I have seen nothing from any of you, so far, that causes me to doubt the correctness of the English in #3.
#11VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 14 Jun 18, 15:21
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And should the disinterested reader here believe you, or the dimwits on the Supreme Court?

They can believe the dimwits, for all I care. But they should also consider that the Supreme Court tends to deal with legal context, and that's all I'm saying: I'm sure it's great Legalese, but you probably won't find it much in regular prose etc. And I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to English learners.
#12Verfasserdude (253248) 14 Jun 18, 15:34
Kommentar
Are you saying that because you don't use "timely filed," it is not up to par?

No, I am saying what I said in #9. :-) I am saying that my experience in my language community gives me the feeling that there is something slightly wrong with timely filed because it does not fit the patterns I have learned. And I think I put my finger on the precise reason in the penultimate sentence of #9. In the language community of which I am part, timely filed is a phrase which can be improved upon. Whether it is up to par depends on the level at which the par is set, and that will vary a great deal with the context.

Or do you have a substantial basis for saying that it is not good English?

My substantial basis is my experience with the language.

And should the disinterested reader here believe you,

I hope that the disinterested reader will apply the principle of charity and assume that I am writing in good faith.

or the dimwits on the Supreme Court?

I don't imagine that the members of the US supreme court are liable to be dimwits, and I assume they are experts in using the language that is used in their community. There appears to be a discrepancy between their use of English words and mine; possible reasons for this could be our partially disjoint experiences of English due to locality and/or profession.

I do sometimes wonder if things wouldn't be easier on LEO if there were separate German <=> US English and German <=> British English forums ;-)
#13Verfasseramw (532814) 14 Jun 18, 17:24
Kommentar
Ich habe das gleiche Problem wie amw, weil ich 'timely' auch nur als Adjektiv kenne, was dann zu 'I filed it timelily' führen würde, was dann blöd klingen würde ;-)

Ich stimme HW aber dahingehend zu, dass 'of course' für 'selbstverständlich' hier gut passt - 'as a matter of course' geht gar nicht, und #1 ist in der Tat etwas hemdsärmelig für diesen Kontext.


I do sometimes wonder if things wouldn't be easier on LEO if there were separate German <=> US English and German <=> British English forums ;-)

Yes, please!
#14VerfasserGibson (418762) 14 Jun 18, 18:35
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What is this? LEO's very own Brexit movement?
#15Verfasserdude (253248) 14 Jun 18, 19:45
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At least, we found the problem: Some see timely as an adjective and other as adverb. My Collins says: timely (adj); -lier, liest (adv)
??? I am confused: rechtzeitiger, am rechtzeitigsten?
#16VerfasserColorada (428933) 14 Jun 18, 23:07
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it's doubtful the OP wants to speak legalese

It seems like the suggestion in #3 is missing a noun if it were to be used as an adjective, thereby giving the impression that timely is used as an adverb.
Examples of timely used as an adjective are: "...a timely warning..." or "...a timely reminder..."

Interesting, Oxford online dictionary defines timely as adjective only, whereas M-W defines it as both adjective and adverb, so most likely an AE/BE difference.

The suggestions offered in #4 are simple plain, good English regardless of regional variations. If the OP is seeking "...legalese..." well,...

an alternate would be "of course I filed an appeal to the decision in (or on) time / before the deadline / within the allotted time, etc..... or something similar.

and what about AU /NZ English <==> German forums?
#17VerfasserMein Fritz (862420) 15 Jun 18, 05:37
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I will leave after this, but I cannot resist the temptation to respond to yet another of Mein Fritz's unfounded and confounded assessments of English. (IMHO, he is not capable of correctly assessing English on a consistent basis.)

As I have already said (and which you have not disproved and cannot disprove), "timely filed" is not legalese. "Timely" is a regular English word, and so is "filed." And if you were to make the effort to read a fair sample of Supreme Court cases (pick at least five or ten at random, and read them), you would see that almost all of the words in those opinions are regular English words. Relatively little of the opinions consists of "legal words."

Mein Fritz's position is inconsistent in any event. He says "It's doubtful the OP wants to speak legalese." As he (and everyone else) should perhaps understand, the very notion of an appeal involves a legal situation. In and for the instance of filing an appeal, why on earth should the OP not use what you (incorrectly) call "legalese"? Or does the OP need to get herself appointed to the Supreme Court before she can use the words "timely filed"?

I (quite randomly) nominate Mein Fritz to be chairman of the Committee For Always Using More Words Than Necessary.

If Leo does not consider the writing of the United States Supreme Court to be good English, then Leo is unfounded and has no credibility.
#18VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 15 Jun 18, 07:54
Kommentar
'Timely' is not an adverb. That's why the suggestion in #3 is not English (or at least, not BE). (Nor does it mean 'in the time required by law or contract'.)

On the substantive issue, 'of course' can sound truculent or plain rude, like 'obviously'. 'Selbstverständich' is 'It goes without saying'. Of course, one may ask, if it goes without saying, why you need to say it. But if you ask that question, you can probably delete most of the words that have ever been said.
#19Verfasserescoville (237761) 15 Jun 18, 08:59
Kontext/ Beispiele
'of ourse' can sound truculent or plain rude

So can 'selbstverständlich' (and in the OP's sentence, it does)
#20VerfasserGibson (418762) 15 Jun 18, 10:18
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Oh man, I just looked in here again for the first time after writing my answer.

Just to be clear on why I don't believe "I timely filed" is good English: it is (as escoville and others already said) because I have never heard "timely" used as an adverb, only as an adjective (that Supreme Court quotation notwithstanding – although I would also file that under legalese...). "I filed in a timely manner" would be ok.

And FWIW I spent about half my life in the US and half in the UK, and consider myself fluent in both BE and AE. ;-)
#21VerfasserMarie_53 (1159313) 15 Jun 18, 11:18
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First, re #13.

amw: Sorry for any confusion, but my questions in #11--which you kindly answered in #13--were directed at dude (#10).


Now, if I may be so bold as to make this request of everyone here who has alleged that "timely filed" is legalese (e.g., #10, #17, and #21):

(a) Please tell us whether you have graduated from a fully accredited law school in the USA.

(b) If you have so graduated, please explain your argument for why "timely filed" is legalese.

(c) If you have not so graduated, please explain why your legal opinion on this question should be credited whatsoever.

(d) If (as I suspect) your opinion about "timely filed" being legalese is based on the fact that those two words are found in the Supreme Court opinion (see #8), then explain why all the other words in the Court's opinion are not also legalese. For example, these five words: "a document must be received." Is each of those five words also legalese? (They, too, look like regular English words, imo.)

(e) If you deem those five words to be legalese (or not), what changes would you make to them, and how many more words would you add to them, in order to make them "good English"?
#22VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 15 Jun 18, 12:08
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@HW - Legalese is the technical jargon for lawyers, plain and simple. A lot of professions have their own technical jargon, so the law is no different there, but lawyers know how to make things particularly hard to understand for the "common" people, probably for the same reasons the Bible had been in Latin for centuries before Luther finally translated it.

In #11 you claim that

The words "timely filed" are not legal words. They are English words. "Res judicata" (for example) is a legal term; "timely filed" is just regular English.

"Res judicata" may be a legal term, but it is above all Latin, not English. Legalese, on the other hand, may contain Latin terms and phrases, but it is more than anything the professional jargon of lawyers that uses English terms and phrases that don't seem to follow "normal" English writing and speech patterns, i.e. expressions and formulations that you would not normally encounter in, say, a news article or a novel, etc., unless they deal with legal context. Legalese tends to be littered with things like "whereas," "hereinafter," "effectuate," and the like. From everything I can see, "timely filed" falls into that category.

As for your questionnaire in #22: please get over yourself.
#23Verfasserdude (253248) 15 Jun 18, 15:46
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I think HW is out for an argument, so I really shouldn't respond, but... I support everything dude said in #23.

"Timely filed" are English words, but in normal speech/writing (!) they are not used in the way they were in HW's original post (#3) And the sentence "I good wrote a letter" is also made up entirely of English words, yet is still incorrect from a grammar standpoint.

And in response to question e), I gave 3 perfectly good suggestions for how the sentence could be translated in my first post #4.
#24VerfasserMarie_53 (1159313) 15 Jun 18, 16:12
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Re #23 and #24.

? ? ?
#25VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 15 Jun 18, 19:00
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