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Wrong entry

stoop - offene Veranda

10 replies   


[Amer.] [coll.] -

Stufen vor dem Hauseingang

offene Veranda = open porch, würde ich sagen, oder?

stoep heisst aber auf Holländisch Veranda, wie ich soeben gelernt habe...
AuthorSage N. Fer Get K.S.C. (382314) 13 Jun 12, 19:06
Context/ examples
related discussion: stoop (noun) - Treppenaufgang (contains broken link to ...&group=forum002_new&file=20040217153642)

related discussion: lost on the stoop
related discussion: stoop - Veranda
related discussion: ''stoop'',''stairs'',''staircase'' oder ''sta...

Is a type of house popular in Philadelphia for example.
Typisch ein Reihenhaus mit 3 oder 4 treppen vorne wo man sich auf den sogenannten "stoop" sitzt.
related discussion: up to a brownstone

Es geht uns gut, Arno Geiger (2005, dtv 2007):
Philipp sitzt auf der Vortreppe der Villa, die er von seiner im Winter verstorbenen Großmutter geerbt hat. (S. 8)
Und wieder das Stiegenhaus, Herrenzimmer, Nähzimmer, die Veranda, Stiegenhaus, die teppichbelegte Treppe ... anschließend besteht Johanna darauf, draußen zu frühstücken, auf der Vortreppe. Dort ist es mittlerweile noch wärmer geworden (in dieser befremdlich heilen Gegend aus Villen und unbegangenen Bürgersteigen). (S. 11-12)
Dann sitzt er ... augenreibend und gähnend auf der Vortreppe und fühlt sich vom heißen Wetter geohrfeigt. (S. 281)

In the book I've just been reading, they have a Vortreppe, which sounds like a stoop and appears to be a different thing from the Veranda. Is that only Austrian, or only for larger, more imposing houses? And what about Treppenaufgang, which was mentioned once or twice? Maybe even if 'offene Veranda' isn't exactly wrong, it would help to add some other options.

I thought there had been a longer discussion, covering perhaps stoop vs. front steps in English and several options for the German side, but I didn't find it.

Stoop is definitely singular, but it means the (flat concrete area with) steps.

#1Authorhm -- us (236141) 13 Jun 12, 20:27
"offene Veranda" is definitely wrong, because it refers to a platform without steps (although in some cases there might be an outdoor stair).

#2AuthorM-A-Z (306843) 13 Jun 12, 22:12
Right, I wanted to take the (s?) bit out, but it seems I didn't. Of course, singular.

For your Vortreppe, is this a city mansion or rather a country estate? Could it be something like a Wintergarten? It's hard to have breakfest on a normal stoop, unless you're alone and having a sandwich... :-)
Well, the unbegangene Bürgersteige suggests a townhouse..

Treppenaufgang could be Austrian for Treppenhaus I think.
#3AuthorSage N. Fer Get K.S.C. (382314) 14 Jun 12, 11:30
stoep = Afrikaans... (kurz gesprochen, oe = etwas zwischen ü und u)
So hieß auch vor unserer Haustür (eines 8-Zimmer-Hauses) die 1-qm kleine Boden-Steinfläche und einer kurzen eingrenzenden Mauer und die eine einzelne Stufe zur Haustür.
Keine Überdachung, keine Veranda, kein Wintergarten.

Aber: Es gibt, s. google, seit 2011 eine TV-Serie in S.A. "Ouma en Oupa op die stoep", da zeigen die Bilder eher etwas Überdachtes im Sinne einer evtl. kleinen Veranda.

Meiner Meinung nach:
offene(r) oder überdachte(r) Vortreppe bzw. Vorraum vorm Hauseingang
#4AuthorBraunbärin (757733) 14 Jun 12, 14:44
Im südlichen Afrika ist stoep (Afrikaans) bzw. stoop (Englisch) eine offene, überdachte Veranda. In ländlichen Gegenden und Vorstädten ist sie meist sehr geräumig und mit Sizumöbeln ausgestattet, denn das häusliche Leben spielt sich mehr auf der Veranda als im Haus ab.

Der Eintrag sollte schon bestehen bleiben, aber mit dem Zusatz S.A.
#5Authorerl (321304) 14 Jun 12, 18:02
I wonder if part of the problem may be that the Dutch/Afrikaans word stoep is not a true cognate with the English stoop (except perhaps in South African English?). It sounds as if stoep might just mean porch in a more general sense.

Marking the existing entry South African might or might not be useful, but even so, it would only address part of the problem; you would still need other options to translate 'stoop' E>D.

I checked the monolingual dictionary to see if definitions would help differentiate among the various choices in English, but Webster's at least is very vague, not really reflecting usage as I know it in practice.

To me a stoop is a subset of porch, the kind of porch that is small, not much wider than the door, consisting mostly of steps. It wouldn't typically have any railing or wall on the front side, only steps for the full width, and it wouldn't be large enough for any chairs, only for people. I don't picture most stoops as having a roof over them at all, though I suppose one could. I think of a stoop in front of a townhouse such as a brownstone, or in front of a relatively small, compact house.

A veranda in English is perhaps a different subset of porch, or a word used for porch more in some countries or regions than others. I picture a veranda as extending across the full width of a fairly large country house, perhaps even going around two or more sides of the house, and having furniture on it and being used as if it were another room of the house, just an open-air room.

But Veranda in German may not cover the same range of meaning; it too may just mean generally 'porch.' And other English speakers may have a different mental image of what constitutes a stoop or a veranda as opposed to a porch. Perhaps others will comment.

Sage, to answer your question, the villa in the Geiger novel is evidently in a well-to-do suburb of Vienna; the late grandfather who owned it was a government minister in the postwar period, so I assume it's fairly substantial, though not necessarily a mansion. I think the modern grandson who inherits it can sit casually out front on the steps and have a roll and coffee for breakfast without needing a chair or a table, but who knows, it might actually be a bigger porch and he's just sitting on the porch steps. I'm not sure if there is a front yard (= garden BE) or only a back yard, but in front there is at least enough space for a driveway and sort of graveled parking area, IIRC.

Maybe Austrians will comment on what they picture a Vortreppe as consisting of, or there might be a fuller description of it in a dictionary.
#6Authorhm -- us (236141) 14 Jun 12, 19:47
You're right, hm--us, Sage N. Fer Get K.S.C. has muddied the waters by linking a Dutch word to the English term. According to the Oxford Dictionary stoep and stoop may have a common origin (Old English stūpian (verb), related to the adjective steep), but this doesn't mean that their modern meanings coincide. Just take German and English words of common origin and different meaning like "Knabe - knave" or "sterben - starve" and you can see my point.
#7AuthorIlldiko (763882) 14 Jun 12, 23:06
As hm -- us says, stoop is used regionally here for the steps and small landing in front of a certain type of house (often row house), especially in certain cities, including New York. I can't say whether the Dutch influence on early New York is relevant.

In any case, stoop is a good AE word to mean a specific thing, but not to be confused with porch, patio, veranda, deck and no doubt more.
#8AuthorJurist (US) (804041) 14 Jun 12, 23:12
#6: I picture a veranda as extending across the full width of a fairly large country house, perhaps even going around two or more sides of the house, and having furniture on it and being used as if it were another room of the house, just an open-air room.

This is pretty much what I associate with a Veranda in German.

#3: Treppenaufgang could be Austrian for Treppenhaus I think.

No, that's not true: http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Treppenaufgang

#6: I don't think "Vortreppe" is Austrian, since the Austrians use "Stiege" for "Treppe":

#9AuthorIlldiko (763882) 14 Jun 12, 23:18
I agree that "stoop" is a particular kind of porch, as described by hm -- us and Jurist - at least for AE (possibly regional). My relatives in the Midwest use the term for a small porch with stairs (usually at the front rather than to the side).

A "veranda" is larger and may run not just along one side of the house but completely around it. It would not be significantly smaller than the length of one side of the house and has room for table(s) and chairs. For me the roughly equivalent word is "lanai" but with different associations. (Lanai - Hawaii, tropics; veranda - New England, Midwest, South - anywhere not in the tropics)

All three are a kind of porch.
#10AuthorRobert -- US (328606) 15 Jun 12, 00:18
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