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er ist Vater von 2 Kindern [Bildung]

38 Antworten   
Richtig?

he is father of two (kids)

Kommentar
I wonder whether I have to say
"he is father of two" or
"he is being father of two"

Is there a difference in meaning between the two versions?

Thank you indeed for your help!
hf, more or less an English beginner
VerfasserHolyfather (1140368) 21 Apr 17, 09:51
Kommentar
He is a father of two.
#1Verfasserpenguin (236245) 21 Apr 17, 10:00
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#1 is OK, but "He is father of two" is also fine (and preferable, IMO).

Someone determined to make a joke of "He is a father of two" could point out that two is quite young to be a father.
#2VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 21 Apr 17, 10:27
Kommentar
... wobei man das evtl. abkürzen könnte zu

He has two kids.

(Nicht-muttersprachlicher Vorschlag.)
#3VerfasserMr Chekov (DE) (522758) 21 Apr 17, 10:39
Kommentar
 "He is father of two" is also fine (and preferable, IMO).

Not in my version of the English language (BE), HappyWarrior. It is comprehensible, and I hesitate to call it wrong, but I would certainly not say that it is preferable.
#4VerfasserDragon (238202) 21 Apr 17, 10:39
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What don't you like about it?
#5VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 21 Apr 17, 11:04
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I have also never heard or seen 'He is father of two'. Sounds Japanese.

#6VerfasserGibson (418762) 21 Apr 17, 11:13
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I don't like 'He is father of two' either. But I would only use the expression in apposition anyway: 'Jack Sprat, a father of two, was arrested shortly afterwards.' For a whole sentence I'd say 'He has two children.' (Not: kids).
#7Verfasserescoville (237761) 21 Apr 17, 11:27
Kommentar
Here's one example:

"Thomas Lincoln was an American farmer, carpenter, and father of President Abraham Lincoln. Unlike some of his ancestors, Lincoln could not write, but he was a well-respected community and church member known for his honesty." (Wikipedia)

I think the author of the foregoing had good reason not to say that Thomas Lincoln was a father of Abraham Lincoln. He might have said that he was "the" father of Abe--but that is a different discussion.
#8VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 21 Apr 17, 11:30
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But there is a difference between 'he is a father of two' and 'he is (the) father of Abraham Lincoln'.
#9Verfasserpenguin (236245) 21 Apr 17, 11:37
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What is the difference?
#10VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 21 Apr 17, 11:39
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There is only one father of Lincoln. There a great many fathers of two children.

Do you say 'I am lawywer', too? It's the same thing. Of course you don't need 'a' for clarity, understanding or anything (German does without it, after all) but it's simply what you say in English.
#11VerfasserGibson (418762) 21 Apr 17, 11:42
Kommentar
In case the question was serious:

He is a builder.
He is a banker.
He is a father of two.

*edit* What Gibson said.

#12Verfasserpenguin (236245) 21 Apr 17, 11:44
Kommentar
I should have said it with 'are' in my sentence, though.
#13VerfasserGibson (418762) 21 Apr 17, 11:45
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Gibson, it is not what everybody says in English (at least not all the time).* And I disagree with your statement that "It's the same thing." It is not the same thing.

Of course I don't say "I am lawyer." I say "I am a lawyer." And when asked if I am married, I might very well put it this way: "Yes, I am, and indeed I am father of three."

Moreover, I have a sister with children. I am uncle to four (kids). No need to say "I am an uncle to four."


*Mind you, I did not say that #1 is wrong. I said that (IMO) #2 is preferable (for the reason indicated)


There is only one father of Lincoln. There a great many fathers of two children.

I don't think that has any bearing on the issue.
#14VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 21 Apr 17, 11:56
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Re #12.

Yes, the question was serious. And, no, you have not answered it.
#15VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 21 Apr 17, 11:57
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I agree with penguin, Dragon and escoville. #8 is a red herring.
#16Verfasseramw (532814) 21 Apr 17, 12:05
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Can you explain your conclusion?
#17VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 21 Apr 17, 12:06
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Of course I don't say "I am lawyer." I say "I am a lawyer." 

Why?
#18VerfasserGibson (418762) 21 Apr 17, 12:11
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Because I speak English.

However, if asked what I do for a living, I might say "I am lawyer to the Governor."

Similarly, my friend might say "I am a judge--indeed I am judge for the Third District."
#19VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 21 Apr 17, 12:15
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Your judge friend speaks funny, HW! :-)
#20Verfasseramw (532814) 21 Apr 17, 12:47
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amw, he might say the same of you! (-;


PS to #19. Another example:

“I am monarch of all I survey,
My right there is none to dispute,
From the centre all round to the sea,
I am lord of the fowl and the brute.
O solitude! Where are the charms
That sages have seen in thy face?
Better dwell in the midst of alarms,
Than reign in this horrible place.”

#21VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 21 Apr 17, 12:51
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Because I speak English.

That seems to be a point of discussion.

Seriously, though: What kind of answer is that? That's exactly what everybody else in this thread says about 'I am father'. It's wrong, or at least very odd. Why? Because they speak English. That does not seem to satisfy or convince you, so why do you use that as an argument?
#22VerfasserGibson (418762) 21 Apr 17, 12:59
Kommentar
Because I know that it's good English. Why do you insist that I deny what I know? And why do you insist that no one speaks "English" unless you approve of it?

The further question is why you have disregarded what I have been telling (and showing) you?
#23VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 21 Apr 17, 13:05
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Und #21 beweist genau was?
#24Verfassereastworld (238866) 21 Apr 17, 13:13
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That you do not need to say "I am a/the monarch of all I survey" or "I am a/the lord of the fowl and the brute."

Similarly, you do not need to say that you are a father of two.
#25VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 21 Apr 17, 13:16
Kommentar
And why do you insist that no one speaks "English" unless you approve of it?

I don't think I do.

I just think 'Because it's good English' is not a hugely convincing argument when everybody else in this thread (I'm not talking about myself) has a different idea of what good English is. If your only answer to

Why do you say 'I'm a lawyer' but 'I am father'?

is: Because it's what I insist is good English even if nobody else does

than there's not much to talk about, is there? There's just no basis for discussion.
#26VerfasserGibson (418762) 21 Apr 17, 13:20
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A discussion is a two-way proposition. I have explained myself, but nothing I can tell you is good enough for you, apparently.

Is your idea of a viable discussion one in which the other person simply concedes and declares that you are right? That's a discussion?
#27VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 21 Apr 17, 13:24
Kontext/ Beispiele
@25: Ein Gedicht aus dem 18. Jahrhundert? Na ja.

Bei einer zugegebenermaßen oberflächlichen Google-Suche nach "he is (oder I am) father of two" ergeben die meisten Treffer "father of two sons/daughters/children" etc.
#28Verfassereastworld (238866) 21 Apr 17, 13:27
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Back to topic …
 
“father of two children” (without an article) is certainly used in English, for instance in the “He’s a freelance translator and father of two children” kind of context (cf. #8). Here the indefinite article before the profession covers both nouns, I would say. But there are other contexts.
 
I’m very surprised, though, that anyone should find it preferable (#2) to the form with the indefinite article, as I believe this depends entirely on context.

Context, unfortunately, is what the OP doesn't provide (it's not even clear if it's intended as a free-standing sentence or part of a sentence)---is it in a CV, an obituary, a short biography, a historical narrative, or something else, what are the sentences before and after it, etc.
 
Aside from options already mentioned ("father of two," "a father of two," "has two children"), “the father of two children” is also possible---depending on ... context
#29VerfasserBion (1092007) 21 Apr 17, 13:29
Kommentar
Ein Gedicht aus dem 18. Jahrhundert? Na ja.

Its age is irrelevant. It represents perfectly valid English.

Bei einer zugegebenermaßen oberflächlichen Google-Suche nach "he is (oder I am) father of two" ergeben die meisten Treffer "father of two sons/daughters/children" etc.

Sorry, but I don't understand your point.
#30VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 21 Apr 17, 13:31
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edit@29: "I'd also prefer the "children" after "two" in my final paragraph
#31VerfasserBion (1092007) 21 Apr 17, 13:32
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Re #29.
in the “He’s a freelance translator and father of two children” kind of context (cf. #8).

Respectfully, I don't think that analysis is dispositive. In #8, it would make no sense to say that "Thomas Lincoln was a father of Abraham Lincoln." He was simply father of Abraham Lincoln.
#32VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 21 Apr 17, 13:36
Kommentar
@#32 it would make no sense to say that "Thomas Lincoln was a father of Abraham Lincoln

No one said it would. In that context, by my book, you would indeed use either nothing or "the" (see #29 last sentence of first paragraph and last paragraph).

I get the distinct impression you're more interested in squabbling than in creating clarity. Adieu ...
#33VerfasserBion (1092007) 21 Apr 17, 13:47
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No, clarity was precisely my goal. You referred to #8 incorrectly (IMO), taking it as the basis for your argument--but in fact #8 does not support what you said in #29. Why is it that your statements constitute clarifications, but my statements are only squabbling?

I did not make the incorrect statement in #29, but I thought it necessary to make the clarification.
#34VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 21 Apr 17, 13:55
Kommentar
Let us ignore those sentences where (a) the 'omitted' article is definite, and (b) would if it were there simply be a repetition of a preceding article. The case of Abraham Lincoln is clearly an instance of (a), as are the two cases in Cowper's poem.

Which leaves us with the question, when neither (a) nor (b) apply, of whether we must have an indefinite article, or whether it is optional and the two are in free variation, or whether they differ in meaning.
I hope we can agree that 'I am father.' is impossible.
I hope we can also agree that 'I am a father of two' is possible.
So possibly we can then consider whether 'I am father of two' is not perhaps a case of (a) above, because I think we can say 'I am the father of two'.
If so, we then have to ask whether there is any difference between the versions with the definite and indefinite article. Quite possibly there isn't, or it's hair-splitting. After all, we can say 'The cow is a mammal' and 'A cow is a mammal'. (I know this is a different question, I just want to say that 'a' and 'the' are not always as different as one might think.)

Incidentally, has anyone told the OP explicitly that you can't say 'is being'? If not: Holyfather, you can't say 'is being father of two' and I think we will all agree on that at least.
#35Verfasserescoville (237761) 21 Apr 17, 16:33
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Hello, escoville. Thanks for doing such a thoughtful analysis. But I'm not sure what your verdict was.

I hope we can agree that 'I am father.' is impossible.
I hope we can also agree that 'I am a father of two' is possible.

Yes, we do agree about that.


The case of Abraham Lincoln is clearly an instance of (a), as are the two cases in Cowper's poem.

Regarding your analysis: If we assume that the Lincoln sentence and the Cowper poem show an "omission" of something, then in the Lincoln sentence it is a definite article that was omitted. (Thomas was "the"--not "a"--father of Abe.) However, I see no reason to make the same assumption about the Cowper poem, which could mean either that he is "the" lord of fowl and brutes or "a" lord of fowl and brutes. (Maybe he has a brother who is also such a lord--a brother who lives in another area, perhaps somewhere in Wisconsin.)

I don't know whether the Lincoln and Cowper examples represent the "omission" of anything, or whether, instead, they simply are good English in any event (and in their own right).

I am happy to take your analysis as correct, if the upshot is that such things ("He is father of two (sons)"; "Thomas, father of Abraham"; "I am monarch of all I survey") are deemed to be good, correct English. I say they are good, correct English.
#36VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 21 Apr 17, 21:26
Kommentar
Another one to consider.

'The child is father to the man.'
Gerard Manley Hopkins, 1844 - 1889

‘The child is father to the man.' How can he be? The words are wild. Suck any sense from that who can: ‘The child is father to the man.' No; what the poet did write ran, ‘The man is father to the child.' ‘The child is father to the man!' How can he be? The words are wild!
#37VerfasserHappyWarrior (964133) 22 Apr 17, 09:28
Kommentar
Re Cowper: it must be 'the monarch', because anything else would be oxymoronic. I agree that 'a lord' would make sense out of context, but I think Cowper was continuing from 'monarch', and in fact using 'lord' as a synonym of 'monarch'.

If you aren't sure what my conclusion is, then neither am I. I cannot myself imagine saying 'I am father of two', but I think it is not 'wrong' in the sense that 'I am father' is wrong. I'm trying to explore why this might be.
#38Verfasserescoville (237761) 22 Apr 17, 12:51
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