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    must needs - muss unbedingt

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    U.a.:

    Kenneth G. Wilson (1923–). The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. 1993.

    needs (adv.)


    occurs in the idioms needs must and must needs, which mean “must of necessity, must necessarily” and are examples of hyperbole, as in She must needs [needs must] listen to him, even though she’d rather not. The form of needs is unchanging in these uses.

    http://www.bartleby.com/68/36/4036.html
    Kommentar
    Eine relativ häufig gebrauchte Wendung (hier pars pro toto nur eine Quelle), die bisher in LEO fehlt.
    VerfasserFerenczi15 Mai 06, 19:11
    Kommentar
    Ich probier's noch mal.
    #1VerfasserFerenczi23 Mai 06, 14:25
    Kommentar
    Und nochmal. Dann geb ich auf.
    #2VerfasserFerenczi23 Mai 06, 22:19
    Kommentar
    Dagegen.

    Vielleicht waere es erfolgreicher mehr Kontextbeispiele/Belege zu bringen, als einfach den Beitrag nach oben zu schieben?

    Ich halte den Vorschlag fuer nicht sonderlich gelungen. "must needs", wie die *einzige* Quelle belegt, beschreibt einen aus den Umstaenden geborenen Zwang. Ich wuerde daher eher von "muss notwendigerweise", "hat keine andere Wahl" sprechen. "Muss unbedingt" verstaerkt nur "muessen", hat aber keinen Bezug darauf, dass man keine andere Wahl hat.

    Das obige Beispiel "She must needs [needs must] listen to him, even though she’d rather not." laesst sich nur schlecht/nicht mit "muss unbedingt" uebersetzen.
    #3VerfasserHein -de-24 Mai 06, 04:07
    Quellen
    Web examples:

    (news.google.com)
    • She drives the eight miles to work from her house in Wiltshire and takes short flights for business if needs must. (Times, UK)
    • When needs must, I could slip into the loo, knowing full well that the cinema staff would keep an eye on my charges for me. (UK)
    • an appreciation that the footballing masters will use the black arts when needs must (UK)
    • Chelsea, for the size of their squad, still sometimes shut up shop and play out dull 1-0 wins when needs must.

    (scholar.google.com)
    • a number of mathematical points must needs be glossed over or even ignored (1964)
    • large order of mammals, the rodents, has certain characteristic patterns that seem to be founded on a few main cusps, and these cusps must needs be identified (1936)
    • The consequence must needs be that of confusion of tongues, which is emphasized in the title of this address. (S. Ferenczi ^^, 1988)
    • As it is, progress must needs be slower, as hearts and minds are won for a new vision of how best to help young people learn about sexual matters (2000)
    • Such constructs must needs be arbitrary as to their degree of
    generality and principles of generalization. (1956)
    • If the draft-tube rectilinear stretch is followed by an elbow, qualitative considerations show that a synchronous component must needs arise. (1989)
    • Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. (Rom. 13 KJV, quoted by A. Scalia, 2000)
    • he was a reluctant pianist who resorted to the keyboard only when needs must. (1989)
    • If needs must, the Japanese Empire will develop as a closed bloc within its new imperial frontiers. (1941)
    • At the same time she is reading the Life of Goethe and, when needs must, slicing beans. (Schumann, diary, 1934, trans.)
    • Sterne felt that the truth of imitation in both painting and poetry should, if needs must, be sacrificed to beauty. (1921)
    • Travel was undertaken as a means (unpalatable, but needs must when the devil drives) of bolstering life at home. (1997)

    Older quotations:

    (www.bartleby.com)
    • When things have come to the worst they must needs mend.
    • from chance presents and offerings, whereby they grow accustomed to sell justice and injustice, as they must needs do at Rome, where the Pope gives them
    • They must needs be violent, to make good their own vaunts.
    • Neither can they be secret, and therefore not effectual;
    • For this cause therefore they must needs buy in the markets, though they be twenty miles off, and where they be not known
    • They must needs acknowledge that there are pious Christians among us
    • They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. (Jer. 10:5)
    • but, because they flocked around his person, he thought they must needs love him
    • For when the class ... on whom you judge it necessary to rely for your support, is corrupt, you must needs adapt
    • In Practice, still more in Opinion, which is the precursor and prototype of Practice, there must needs be collision, convulsion
    • MANY a green isle needs must be / In the deep wide sea of Misery
    • THOUGH you be absent here, I needs must say / The Trees as beauteous are, and flowers as gay,
    • FAREWELL, my Youth! for now we needs must part,
    • There are others, Machiavel, men whom I esteem, yet whom I needs must blame (Goethe, Egmont, trans.)
    • I suffer with them, for I needs must love them (Schiller, William Tell, trans.
    Kommentar
    If contextual examples will help, here are a bunch. (-;
    #4Verfasserhm -- us24 Mai 06, 05:44
    Quellen
    A very good discussion:
    http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?d...

    Pons-Collins:
    needs - (obs)
    I must needs away/obey - ich muss fort/notwendigerweise gehorchen;
    needs must if the devil drives - (prov) nolens volens

    Oxford-Duden:
    needs - (dated)
    needs must when the devil drives - (prov.) was sein muss, muss sein;
    if needs must - wenn es [unbedingt] sein muss /od./ nötig ist

    NOAD:
    needs - (in phrase 'must needs (or 'needs must') do something') [archaic] cannot avoid or help doing something: 'they must needs depart.'

    Webster's 3rd unabridged:
    needs - of necessity: NECESSARILY, INDISPENSABLY <would needs be left open ...> — usu. used with 'must' <must needs be objective ...> <must needs examine her bracelet ...>

    Random House unabridged:
    needs - of necessity; necessarily (often prec. or fol. by 'must'): 'It must needs be so.' 'It needs must be.'
    Kommentar
    I agree that the English phrases should be added. Perhaps more than one translation would be possible.

    I would paraphrase 'must needs' as 'absolutely must' or 'really have/has to.' For me it's dated but not yet archaic, rather rhetorical or literary instead.

    'Needs must' might be slightly more antiquated. My impression, just off the top of my head, is that it now survives only in the fixed phrase 'if/when needs must,' and that probably mainly in older texts. However, I found it in a few modern BE printed sources.

    @Ferenczi: What were you trying to do up there?
    #5Verfasserhm -- us24 Mai 06, 05:45
    Kommentar
    @ hm -- us. Thanks so much for providing all those examples and references. Thoughtless of me not to do it. Thanks. I've come across that expression numerous times in literary and scientific texts, and I still think it should be included in LEO, also because it tends to confuse German speaking people, who might think it's a typo. The translation I suggested could probably be improved, of course.
    #6VerfasserFerenczi25 Mai 06, 18:30
    Vorschläge

    must needs

    -

    muss notwendigerweise



    needs must

    -

    muss notwendigerweise



    Kommentar
    I agree that the English phrase should be included, but do not like "unbedingt" because it changes the meaning of "must".
    To me, "needs must" implies unavoidability or lack of an alternative, whereas "muss unbedingt" implies that there is an alternative but there is a compelling reason to avoid it.

    There is also the expression "Needs must when the devil drives" (Not kennt kein Gebot?).
    #7VerfasserMike E.25 Mai 06, 20:31
    Quellen
    John Dowland, "The Frog Gaillard", from "First Book of Songs", 1597
    Kommentar
    Hier kommt die 'Notwendigkeit' zum Ausdruck:

    "Now, oh, now I needs must part,
    Parting tho' I absent mourn;
    Absence can no joy impart;
    Joy once fled cannot return.

    While I live I needs must love;
    Love lives not when hope is gone;
    Now at last despair doth prove:
    Love divided loveth none."
    #8VerfasserReinhard W.26 Mai 06, 10:10
    Kommentar
    Es sieht so aus, als ob imer noch (die Diskussion stammt von 2006) eine adäquate Übersetzung in Leo fehlte.

    Hier eine weitere Belegstelle:
    Swift, Gulliver's travels: "He desired I should not take it ill, if he gave orders to search me; for probably I might carry about me several weapons, which must needs be dangerous things ...".

    In der freien Gutenberg-Übersetzung heißt es:
    "Ich möge es ihm nicht übel nehmen, wenn er bestimmten Beamten den Befehl ertheile, mich zu durchsuchen; wahrscheinlich würde ich verschiedene Waffen mitgebracht haben, welche NOTWENDIG höchst gefährliche Dinge seyn müßten ..."
    #9VerfasserPeter30 Okt. 10, 23:24
    Kommentar
    @Peter: Ich nehme an, du willst darauf hinaus, dass es ein historischer Ausdruck ist, für den eine altertümliche deutsche Übersetzung gesucht werden soll und der dann als [hist.] gekennzeichnet werden soll.

    Dem stehen moderne Belegtexte von hm-us entgegen und seine Aussage: "For me it's dated but not yet archaic, rather rhetorical or literary instead."

    Am wenigsten "dated" und passend ist im Deutschen "unbedingt". Besser "notwendigerweise" (wobei das inhaltlich ein reines Synonym ist, mikeE!).
    #10VerfasserAndi (AT)30 Okt. 10, 23:39
    Kommentar
    Nein, ich meine schlicht, daß bislang eine passende Übersetzung in Leo ganz fehlt. Ob eine Kennzeichnung als hist. erfordelrich ist, weiß ich nicht zu sagen.
    #11VerfasserPeter30 Okt. 10, 23:48
    Vorschläge

    needs

    -

    notwendigerweise



    Kommentar
    Hier noch der OED-Eintrag:
    needs
    adverb
    needs pronunciation English niːdz
    needs pronunciation American niːdz
    (old use)
    in a way that cannot be avoided
    We must needs depart.

    Kann needs zusätzlich auch unabhängig von "must" in der Bedeutung von "notwendigerweise" verwendet werden? Hier ein beispielhafter Beleg für die Verwendung ohne must: "... the Lilliputians will needs have it that men and women are joined together like other animals by the motives of concupiscence". (Swift)
    #12VerfasserPeter01 Nov. 10, 08:27
    Vorschläge

    needs

    -

    notwendigerweise, notgedrungen, durchaus



    Kommentar
    Und hier die eindeutige Übersetzung des Langenscheidt-Taschenwörterbuches:

    needs - notwendigerweise, notgedrungen, durchaus

    #13VerfasserPeter01 Nov. 10, 08:31
    Kontext/ Beispiele
    There are now several translations in Leo:

    Siehe Wörterbuch: must needs
    so. must needs do sth. archaic [form.] jmdm. bleibt keine Wahl als etw.Akk. zu tun
    so. must needs do sth. archaic [form.] jmd. hat keine andere Wahl als etw.Akk. zu tun
    so. needs must do sth. archaic [form.] jmdm. bleibt keine Wahl als etw.Akk. zu tun
    so. needs must do sth. archaic [form.] jmd. hat keine andere Wahl als etw.Akk. zu tun
    Wendungen/Ausdrücke (4 of 4)
    if needs must dated wenn es nicht anders geht
    if needs must dated wenn es sein muss
    Kommentar
    In your Lilliputian example it means something else - that the Lilliputians insist on men and women being joined together.

    New Shorter OED:
    needs
    Of necessity, necessarily. Now rare exc. in clauses containing must (arch. exc. as below).
    must needs spec. (a) foolishly insist(s) or insisted on (foll. by do); (b) = needs must (a) below.
    needs must (a) cannot or could not help or avoid or get out of (foll. by do); (b) ellipt. it is or was necessary, one has or had to (esp. in proverb needs must when the Devil drives).will needs,
    would needs arch. am, is, was, etc., determined (foll. by do).
    #14VerfasserCM2DD (236324) 01 Nov. 10, 09:48
    Kommentar
    Wunderbar. Vielen Dank.

    Für viele der von hm--us weiter oben angeführten Beispiele ist diese - zweifellos oft richtige - Übersetzung aber nicht möglich oder nicht ideal (vielmehr paßt hier notwendigerweise/nötig/notwendig/erforderlich, wie von Langenscheidt vorgeschlagen besser), z.B.:

    • but, because they flocked around his person, he thought they must needs love him - daß sie keine andere Wahl haben, ist hier ja eher nicht gemeint?
    • In Practice, still more in Opinion, which is the precursor and prototype of Practice, there must needs be collision, convulsion - notwendigerweise scheint mir hier eher angemessen
    • She drives the eight miles to work from her house in Wiltshire and takes short flights for business if needs must. (Times, UK) - falls nötig (oder falls sie keine andere Wahl hat)
    • When needs must, I could slip into the loo, knowing full well that the cinema staff would keep an eye on my charges for me. (UK) - falls nötig/erforderlich (oder falls ich keine andere Wahl habe)
    • an appreciation that the footballing masters will use the black arts when needs must (UK) - - falls nötig/erforderlich (oder falls keine andere Wahl besteht)
    • Such constructs must needs be arbitrary as to their degree of
    generality and principles of generalization. (1956) - müssen notwendigerweise .. sein
    • If the draft-tube rectilinear stretch is followed by an elbow, qualitative considerations show that a synchronous component must needs arise. (1989) - notwendigerweise
    etc.

    Ich denke, man sollte also zumindest "notwendigerweise" als Übersetzung ergänzen
    #15VerfasserPeter01 Nov. 10, 10:10
     
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