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  • Falscher Eintrag

    Protestant - reformiert

    Dieser Eintrag wurde offenbar auch schon vor der Einführung heftig diskutiert...
    Siehe auch: protestant - reformiert (CH)

    ... und ich muß dazu sagen, daß ich ihn schlicht und einfach für falsch halte.

    Daß in der Schweiz die Mehrheit der Protestanten reformiert sind, heißt nicht, daß die beiden Begriffe deckungsgleich sind.
    Mit derselben Logik könnte man argumentieren, daß die Mehrheit der Schweizer Protestanten sind (hab' nicht überprüft, ob das stimmt) und als Übersetzung von "Schweizer" "Protestant" vorschlagen.

    Und daß hier in Norddeutschland (von Ostfriesland mal abgesehen) die Lutheraner in der Mehrzahl sind und manche ahnungslosen Behördenmenschen nicht wissen, was die Konfessionsbezeichnung "rf" in den Papieren bedeutet, heißt ebenso noch lange nicht, daß man nun einen Neueintrag "Protestant"= "lutherisch" (norddt) vorschlagen müßte, was die logische Konsequenz aus diesem Eintrag wäre.

    M.E. handelt es sich hier auch nicht um Lokalkolorit, sondern wie schon gesagt, um eine schlicht falsche Übersetzung.

    "Reformiert" wäre - nach meinem besten Wissen und Gewissen" - treffender mit "reformed" oder "Calvinist" zu übersetzen. Da wäre nochmal an einem Neueintrag zu basteln.
    VerfasserHillard7 (369669) 03 Feb. 08, 18:52
    Ergebnisse aus dem Wörterbuch
    Protestant  Adj. [REL.]reformiert  nicht fachsprachlich   - i. S. v. protestantisch (Schweiz)
    Ach so, ja, und hier noch ein kleiner Beleg:

    Dürfte wohl als Beleg reichen, daß die beiden Begriffe nicht deckungsgleich sind.
    #1VerfasserHillard7 (369669) 03 Feb. 08, 19:09


    Rel. Adj. -


    Kontext/ Beispiele
    reformiert - (adj) (Eccl) Reformed

    web examples
    • The real explosion of denominations started with the Reformation in the 16th cent. At that point three major groups split from the Catholics: Lutherans, Reformed, and Baptist. ... For Lutherans and Reformed, the original difference was geography. The German Reformation was Lutheran, the Swiss and Dutch (and the French until the people [were] killed or forced to leave) were Reformed. Theology was actually fairly close. ... The Lutheran, Reformed, and Anglican churches still exist.
    • Other sixteenth-century confessions – Reformed, Roman Catholic, and Lutheran – all took up the theme. • Shapers of Religious Traditions in Germany, Switzerland, and Poland, 1560-1600 ... Reformed, Roman Catholic, and Radical positions are examined.
    • Chaplin compares Reformed and Catholic social thought and concludes ...
    • and between Reformed and Catholic in the Rhineland and Westphalia, and how these religious divisions ...
    • The children were also commonly instructed in a union catechetical class, and were confirmed occasionally by either pastor as Reformed or Lutheran according ...
    • Their church services consisted in meeting at the house of some German Reformed or Lutheran family, it mattered little which
    • It can be seen particularly among Germans who were nominally Reformed or Lutheran affiliating with a Presbyterian church, and many communities jointly ...
    • At the same time, the Pietists generally adhered to the dogma of the established church – whether Reformed or Lutheran.
    • I am not suggesting that Reformed or Lutheran churches accept toddlers to communion (though I believe that they should) ...
    • This hymnal generally draws from the Euro-American Reformed traditions
    • not only for a reassessment of baptism within the Lutheran and Reformed traditions
    • statements illustrate a tension between the Anabaptist and Reformed traditions
    • Throughout much of American religious history the Reformed traditions have been preservers of confessional orthodoxy ...
    • A 1999 survey found 746 Reformed denominations worldwide.
    • Thus Reformed denominations took on various names, some including the term "Reformed" in a narrower sense, such as the Reformed Church in America
    • The Reformed congregations that moved from continental Europe made up a quite distinctive branch of Calvinism
    • On September 27, 1817, Frederick William announced that on the 300th anniversary of the Reformation the Lutheran and Reformed congregations at Potsdam would ...
    • Strong relationships developed between Lutheran and Reformed congregations; many union churches shared buildings.
    • But Reformed churches differ from other confessional churches in two notable ways. First, Reformed confessional statements do not come "from above" ...
    • and continental Reformed churches generally use the verse for the opening of worship. However, Presbyterians do not have the same tradition.
    • The south German Lutherans and the Reformed churches generally returned to the patristic pattern of combining the five or six chief festival days
    • The Reformed churches generally appointed to these commissions scholars and pastors who were also involved in discussions beyond the boundaries of their ...
    • In the sixteenth century the Reformed churches generally rejected the use of colour in worship.
    I agree, if that were the full entry, it would be very misleading. But there's a note; the full LEO entry reads

    Protestant [rel.] (adj.) - reformiert nicht fachsprachlich - i.S.v. protestantisch (Schweiz)

    That seems at least fairly clear, though it's true that it sets a dubious precedent, because there are other German-speaking areas where the vast majority of Protestants are in fact mainly members of one particular denomination. See my comment #17 in the other thread (and mentally edit, please, to 'lutherisch' without the extra AN).

    In any case, I agree that it's very misleading as the only entry for 'reformiert' as an adjective. This is one of the cases where the omission is significant enough that it should be handled as soon as possible, i.e., in Wrong Entry. It shouldn't even really require any extra evidence, since LEO already has an entry for the noun:

    member of the Reformed Church [rel.] - der Reformierte (ein Reformierter) | die Reformierte

    So the it's just that the adjective 'reformiert' is still missing; someone searching on that would not find the form ending in -e, and would find only the rather weird entry about Swiss usage as the sole entry for the word, leading them to suppose that it's not even used outside Switzerland, which is obviously untrue.

    A key point, however, is that 'reformed' with a small R would be wrong. The correction/addition must be 'Reformed' with a capital R, to signify a particular group of Protestant denominations. Otherwise the word has nothing necessarily to do with religion: a reformed alcoholic, the recently reformed tax code, etc.

    'Calvinist' would also be wrong. Obviously the correct translation for that is 'kalvinistisch,' which is already in LEO. Reformed churches are descendants of the Calvinist tradition, so the word is used in historical contexts. But the word 'Calvinist' itself is now mostly pejorative in English, implying an unusually strict, narrow, and moralistic faith more typical of an earlier time in history, much like 'Puritan.' Unlike 'Lutheran,' it is not used as the normal name or descriptive term for a modern denomination of significant size. And it certainly is not synonymous with 'Reformed.'
    #2Verfasserhm -- us (236141) 03 Feb. 08, 20:14
    —> leading them to suppose that it's not even used outside Switzerland, and that there's no other possible translation than 'Protestant,' which is obviously untrue.
    #3Verfasserhm -- us (236141) 03 Feb. 08, 20:16
    Hi hm-us, glad to learn about the correct use of Reformed vs. Calvinist!
    In addition to what you say about it being used only in a historical or even pejorative sense, there are of course other Reformed churches which may not be from the Calvinist tradition. So you are right, that would not be the correct translation. I just wasn't sure about the actual use of the terms in English.

    Nonetheless, I cannot quite agree with you calling this entry only "misleading".
    Even with the note "nicht fachsprachlich - i.S.v. protestantisch (Schweiz)", I can only call this entry wrong.

    Let me put it this way:
    If there is a forest consisting of 99% oaks, and all the villagers around the forest only speak of "trees" because they have never seen any other trees but oaks and to them, a tree is the same thing as an oak, that still does not mean that "Baum" is an appropriate translation for "oak".
    #4VerfasserHillard7 (369669) 03 Feb. 08, 20:27
    Siehe Wörterbuch: reformiert

    Ist mir gerade noch aufgefallen, daß die fragwürdige Übersetzung hier noch gar nicht verlinkt ist...
    #5VerfasserHillard7 (369669) 03 Feb. 08, 20:36
    Yeah, Hillard, basically I agree with you, but I figured that was probably a losing argument from the outset, since the LEO team already seemed to have made the decision after the previous discussion. So I'm just trying to achieve a reasonable compromise.
    #6Verfasserhm -- us (236141) 03 Feb. 08, 20:45
    Well, in that thread Doris from the LEO team at least stated that she was not entirely happy with the translation.
    And as she is perfectly right not to be happy with it, I think we ought to give her some support in this... (Or can a decision once made here by the LEO team never be revised?)
    #7VerfasserHillard7 (369669) 03 Feb. 08, 21:33
    For what it's worth, I support hm's position. In addition to the arguments already presented, Switzerland also has a significant anabaptist population, especially Mennonites (Zurich (Canton), Uri, Schwyz).

    Zwingli in Zurich (City) is one example of a non-Calvinist Reformer.
    #8VerfasserRobert -- US (328606) 04 Feb. 08, 02:12
    Thanks, Robert, for your support!

    You are right, the anabaptist churches probably wouldn't be too thrilled to be summarized under the "Reformed" churches either, though they do of course have their roots in the reformation of Zwingli.

    Zwingli, as you say, is an example of a non-Calvinist Reformer. However, the churches in his tradition most certainly can be called "reformiert".

    Anyways, as I stated in #1, the mere existence of a non-Reformed Protestant church in Switzerland, be it ever so small, should be sufficient proof of the two terms not being synonymous.
    #9VerfasserHillard7 (369669) 04 Feb. 08, 11:39
    Even with the note "nicht fachsprachlich - i.S.v. protestantisch (Schweiz)", I can only call this entry wrong.

    Bloss weil dies falsch ist, muss man es ja nicht gleich loeschen. ;)

    Ernsthaft: Aus persoenlicher Erfahrung behaupte ich, dass in der Schweiz "reformiert" haeufig mit der Bedeutung von "protestantisch" gebraucht wird. Dies ist nicht wirklich korrekt, aber nun einmal Sprachgebrauch. Und in diesem Zusammenhang ist der LEO-Eintrag korrekt und notwendig, da er (notwendigerweise) deutlich macht, dass nicht jeder Schweizer, der von "reformiert" spricht, sich auf diese spezielle protestantische Ausrichtung beschraenkt.

    Ich stimme hm--us zu, dass der Eintrag allerdings irrefuehrend ist, wenn die korrekte Uebersetzung fuer reformiert fehlt.
    #10VerfasserMausling04 Feb. 08, 16:22
    @ Mausling: Den Satz von Dir verstehe ich nicht ganz:
    "Und in diesem Zusammenhang ist der LEO-Eintrag korrekt und notwendig, da er (notwendigerweise) deutlich macht, dass nicht jeder Schweizer, der von "reformiert" spricht, sich auf diese spezielle protestantische Ausrichtung beschraenkt."

    Ich würde eher sagen, daß jeder Schweizer, der sich selber als "reformiert" bezeichnet, ganz genau nur diese protestantische Konfession meint.

    Jedenfalls wird sich ein lutherischer Schweizer ganz sicher nicht als "reformiert" bezeichnen.
    Aber deswegen wäre er ja nicht weniger Protestant (auf deutsch ebenso wie auf englisch) als der reformierte Schweizer.

    Und ob der reformierte Schweizer überhaupt WEISS, daß es andere protestantische Konfessionen gibt (ging ja aus dem anfangs zitierten Thread hervor, daß vielen Schweizern das offenbar gar nicht bewußt ist), tut dabei m.E. für die Frage nach der richtigen Übersetzung überhaupt nichts zur Sache.
    Wie schon gesagt in dem Beispiel mit den Bäumen: Nur weil ich nur Eichen, aber keine Buchen und Birken kenne, heißt das ja nicht, daß "tree" die richtige Übersetzung für "Eiche" ist.
    #11VerfasserHillard7 (369669) 04 Feb. 08, 17:18
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