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    Translation correct?

    to stand in the dock for sth. - wegen etw. auf der Anklagebank sitzen

    Source Language Term

    to stand in the dock for sth.

    Correct?

    wegen etw. auf der Anklagebank sitzen

    Examples/ definitions with source references
    The authorities are preparing to mount a criminal prosecution in relation to the famine, or Holodomor, as it is known in Ukraine, though it is doubtful whether there is anyone still alive to stand in the dock.
    Comment
    wegen etw. angeklagt sein
    Authorw29 Jun 09, 14:01
    Comment

    Oder: wegen einer Sache vor Gericht stehen

    #1AuthorRominara (1294573)  26 Jan 23, 15:10
    Comment

    Hm. Das könnte aber auch ein Zivilprozeß sein. Dock paßt nur zum Strafprozeß.

    #2Authormbshu (874725) 26 Jan 23, 17:47
    Context/ examples
    Comment

    I hardly see that it's relevant that docks are particular to (British) criminal courts. The original text appears to originate in the linked BBC article. The prosecution was proposed by Ukrainian authorities and the BBC reporter's reference to "in the dock" might well be inappropriate because Ukrainian courts might not put the accused in a dock.



    #3AuthorFernSchreiber (1341928) 27 Jan 23, 10:39
    Comment

    I hardly see that it's relevant that docks are particular to (British) criminal courts


    Worauf bezieht sich das? Das wird hier im Faden doch gar nicht angesprochen?

    #4AuthorGibson (418762) 27 Jan 23, 12:09
    Context/ examples
    Comment

    re #3: the BBC reporter's reference to "in the dock" might well be inappropriate because Ukrainian courts might not put the accused in a dock.

    It doesn't seem inappropriate to me at all. This is an idiom, American courts no longer have docks, but the expression is still used there (see for instance the title of the article above)

    In this context, where "criminal prosecution" has already been mentioned, it does not seem necessary to pick a German translation of "in the dock" that explicitly limits the court to a criminal court. In another context, it might be necessary to avoid an ambiguity.

    Could you use "vor Gericht gezogen werden" or "vor Gericht gestellt werden" here? Do those verbs work with Strafgericht too?

    #5AuthorAE procrastinator (1268904) 27 Jan 23, 12:46
    Comment

    #5 I did mean inappropriate in this context.

    #6AuthorFernSchreiber (1341928) 27 Jan 23, 12:52
    Comment

    Re #6. I thought you meant it would be inappropriate because Ukrainian courts do not have docks. Why do you feel it might be inappropriate?

    #7AuthorAE procrastinator (1268904) 27 Jan 23, 13:01
    Comment

    "Auf der Anklagebank sitzen" (nachdem man dorthin "gesetzt" oder "gebracht" wurde) ist eine uneingeschränkt passende ("idiomatische") Entsprechung für "stand in the dock". Es besteht keine Notwendigkeit, an deren Stelle eine Übersetzung für "bring somebody before court" zu verwenden.

    #8AuthorKurt A. (1313470) 27 Jan 23, 13:03
    Comment

    Re 8 - Ok, thanks. The "wegen etwas" can just be omitted then. How would you formulate "whether there is anyone still alive to stand in the dock"?

    #9AuthorAE procrastinator (1268904) 27 Jan 23, 13:12
    Comment

    ... der sich dafür vor Gericht verantworten kann ...

    for instance.

    #10Authorpenguin (236245) 27 Jan 23, 13:18
    Comment

    Thanks, I was wondering about the wording with "auf der Anklagebank sitzen" though, - "ob jemand noch lebt, der auf der Anklagebank sitzen kann"

    Standing accused of a crime, standing in the dock sound more threatening to me than auf der Anklagebank sitzen. I think that is why my (faulty) intutition wanted to put a ziehen or stellen in there. Just my non-DMS ears playing tricks on me, again.

    #11AuthorAE procrastinator (1268904) 27 Jan 23, 13:32
    Comment

    #11: Da es sich um übertragene Bedeutungen handelt, spielt das Zeitwort keine besondere Rolle. Es zählt das Bild als Ganzes.


    #2: Ich würde meinen, dass "wegen einer Sache vor Gericht stehen" eine Formulierung ist, die eindeutig auf Strafrecht bezogen ist. Wenn jemand Partei in einem Zivilprozess ist, würde man das nicht so formulieren.

    #12AuthorRominara (1294573) 28 Jan 23, 13:08
    Comment

    #4, #5 My comment was directed at #2, in which mbshu objected to what seemed to me a very good suggestion by Rominara in #1, justifying the objection by saying that "dock" is only relevant to prosecutions in criminal courts whereas Rominara's suggestion would also apply to civil courts. (Rominara has since argued that this is not the case.)


    When I read the full OT (which I linked in #3) I wondered why the BBC reporter had used such an idiomatic expression as "stand in the dock". OK, the reporter's writing for an English language audience that understands the idiom but, all the same, there are other expressions (e.g. "to be tried for the offences", "be charged with the offences") that convey the same or similar meaning and, for me, better fit the tone of the article. I also thought that it might be the case that Ukrainian courts don't have docks and that the use of the idiom could therefore be inappropriate for that reason. Anyway, it's unnecessary to use it but using it does then lead to the question of how to translate it.


    I have no objection to "auf der Anklagebank sitzen" but I don't see why other options such as "wegen einer Sache vor Gericht stehen" and "sich dafür vor Gericht verantworten kann" should be discounted just because the OT refers to "stand in the dock", when I suspect that this idiom is inappropriate in the context of Ukrainian courts.



    #13AuthorFernSchreiber (1341928) 28 Jan 23, 16:19
    Comment

    #13 Thanks for explaining.

    I have no objection to "auf der Anklagebank sitzen" but I don't see why other options such as "wegen einer Sache vor Gericht stehen" and "sich dafür vor Gericht verantworten kann" should be discounted just because the OT refers to "stand in the dock",

    Far from discounting, I like "sich dafür vor Gericht verantworten kann" best, in my ears it sounds a bit more ominous than the others - and "in the dock" sounds a bit ominous to me too. As for "wegen einer Sache" - wouldn't you have to qualify the "einer Sache" somehow for this context? I was asking about the Anklagebank because I wanted to know how it would be worded in German (whether DMS would tend to omit lebende and whether they would use "sitzen könnte" or "sitzen kann")

    In the US, it was argued that putting the accused in the dock did not accord with the presumption of innocence; I think that was the main reason they were banned. That may be why the expression evokes a sense of threat to me or that and that one often reads "the prisoner in the dock" rather than "the accused".


    As to why the reporter chose to use that idiom: I kind of doubt they built the reinforced glass box in the Ukrainian court just for the Russian soldiers:

    https://www.voanews.com/a/ukraine-court-sente...

    and I remember seeing pictures of Pussy Riot members in an enclosure like that during their trial in Russia. Suspect they were a Soviet thing that hasn't been eliminated in Ukraine yet.

    #14AuthorAE procrastinator (1268904)  29 Jan 23, 14:11
    Comment

    No. 1 f. + 12: Vor Gericht stehen kann man nach meinem Verständnis in jeder Art von Prozeß, nicht nur im Strafprozeß.


    "Da stand ich plötzlich vor Gericht, weil meine Nachbarn sich über das Kindergeschrei beschwert haben" o.ä.

    #15Authormbshu (874725) 29 Jan 23, 17:41
    Suggestions

    vor den Schranken verantworten



    Context/ examples

    Dass sich der (Mann) vor den Schranken verantworten musste, lag insbesondere an .......


    Urner Wochenblatt 28. Januar 2023


    vor den Schranken des Gerichts (= vor Gericht) erscheinen

    jmdn. vor die Schranken des Gerichts fordern, ziehen


    Schranke – Schreibung, Definition, Bedeutung, Etymologie, Synonyme, Beispiele | DWDSSchranke – Schreibung, Definition, Bedeutung, Etymologie, Synonyme, Beispiele | DWDS




    Comment

    Here's a variant on "Anklagebank" that I'd never seen before reading the latest edition of my local paper. Strange coincidence!


    I think "die Schranken" refers to a barrier between the judge and the accused. This is similar to the bar in English and American courts although this is not necessarily between the judge and accused.

    #16AuthorFernSchreiber (1341928) 30 Jan 23, 14:59
    Comment

    Das habe ich noch nie gehört und hätte es auch nicht verstanden.

    #17AuthorGibson (418762) 30 Jan 23, 15:57
    Comment

    Ha, thanks, that is a funny coincidence. From Google hits, it looks like it's a Swiss expression.

    #18AuthorAE procrastinator (1268904)  30 Jan 23, 16:59
    Comment

    #18 It might be more common in CH but it's not limited to there:


    Der Chef-Ankläger des UNO-Kriegsverbrechertribunals in Den Haag erhebt Anklage gegen zwei prominente Figuren, die man täglich in der Nachrichten sieht und von denen sich keiner vorstellen kann, dass sie eines Tages leibhaftig vor den Schranken des Gerichts erscheinen werden – gegen Radovan Karadžić, damals Präsident der bosnischen Serbenrepublik Srpska, und gegen seinen Generalstabschef Ratko Mladić.

    Vor 20 Jahren - Erste Anklageerhebung gegen einen amtierenden Staatschef | deutschlandfunk.de


    Als aktiver Politiker und Beteiligter vor den Schranken des Gerichts habe ich jedenfalls immer erlebt, dass das Verfassungsrecht und nicht etwa das Parteiprogramm der Maßstab ist, nach dem Sie entscheiden.

    Rede von Bundespräsident Dr. Frank-Walter Steinmeier (bundesregierung.de)


    If the German President can use it then it must be OK. 🙂

    #19AuthorFernSchreiber (1341928)  30 Jan 23, 17:09
    Comment

    Ja, aber er benutzt Schranken des Gerichts. Einfach nur so Schranken wie im Zitat in No. 16 mag in der Schweiz üblich sein; mir geht es damit wie Nr. 17.


    (Es gibt in die Schranken weisen, aber da denkt man nicht ans Gericht. Diese Redewendung kommt von den Bräuchen bei Ritterturnieren.)

    #20Authormbshu (874725)  30 Jan 23, 17:15
    Comment

    #20 Ah, I understand. In #16 I did give the full definition (vor den Schranken des Gerichts (= vor Gericht) erscheinen) from DWDS and thought that Gibson hadn't heard that either.


    A bit of research does indeed suggest that the abbreviated form is only used in CH. Never having heard the expression before I didn't know it was abbreviated but its meaning was still fairly clear from the context of the article.

    #21AuthorFernSchreiber (1341928) 30 Jan 23, 17:46
     
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