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Wrong entry

ff - ff.

7 replies   
Examples/ definitions with source references
Leo has:

ff - abbreviation for 'following pages' - ff. - Abkürzung für 'folgende' z. B. bei Seitenzahlen
and the following [abbr.: et seqq., et sqq.] pl. - folgende [Abk.: ff.] Pl.
et seq. - folgende [Abk.: ff.]
and the following [abbr.: et seq.] - folgende [Abk.: f.]
and the following [abbr.: et seqq., et sqq.] pl. - folgende [Abk.: ff.] Pl.
and the following [abbr.: et seq.] - folgende Seite [Abk.: f.]
and the following [abbr.: et seqq., et sqq.] pl. - folgende Seiten [Abk.: ff.] Pl.
Oxford Style Manual: "ff. folios; following pages etc. (pl.) preferred to et seqq."
"et sequens and the following; abbr. et seq., et sq. (not ital.); pl. -tes, n. -tia abbr. et sqq. (not ital.)"

Chicago Manual of Style: "When used, ff. has no space between it and the following number and is followed by a period."

Duden: "ff. = folgende [Seiten]." ... "f. = folgende [Seite]"
I thought we had a discussion on this before but can't find it.

There are several problems:
1. the English f. and ff. are followed by a full point as in the German
2. all the entries need to have f. / ff. on the English side along with et seq./et seqq.
3. From OSM/Duden it seems that the singular form (and one more page) is et seq., et sq. and f.. The plural (and several pages) is et sqq. and ff.. (For f. / ff. this seems clear, but OSM is the only source I have on the singular/plural for et seq./et sqq. Can anyone confirm?)
4. et seq. is not italicised, but ff. is (in English).
5. "And the following" doesn't really translate as "folgende" or "folgende Seite", does it? (Forgetting the abbreviations for a moment.) Shouldn't the long version, if you were going to say it long, be "and the following pages = und die folgenden Seiten"?

So as far as I can tell it should be like this:

ff., et sqq. - and the following pages
ff. - und die folgenden Seiten

f., et seq., et sq.- and the following page(s)
f. - und die folgenden Seite(n)

Improvements welcome. (Not sure how to express the singular/plural aspect - does the singular f. mean "page or pages"??)
AuthorCM2DD (236324) 27 Oct 09, 09:45
Context/ examples
f., F.
abbreviation for
1. fathom(s)
2. female
3. (Linguistics / Grammar) Grammar feminine
4. (Communication Arts / Printing, Lithography & Bookbinding) pl ff., FF. folio
5. pl ff. following (page)
abbreviation for
(Military) fighter F-106
Collins Essential English Dictionary 2nd Edition 2006 © HarperCollins Publishers 2004, 2006
f. = (and the) following (page)
ff. = (and the) following (pages)
#1Authorw27 Oct 09, 11:09
Versteh ich das Chicago Manual of Style richtig, dass es f./ff. (Seitenzahl) heißen muss und nicht wie im Deutschen (Seitenzahl)f./ff.?
#2AuthorCee Jay unplugged27 Oct 09, 12:34
#2 No, sorry, that was me concentrating on the punctuation and writing "following" for "preceding"!
#3AuthorCM2DD (236324) 27 Oct 09, 12:40
Yes, the abbreviations are useful because they have a precise meaning:

f = forte (music)

ff = fortissimo

"folios ff. 1-10" = sheets 1-10.

"page 300 ff." = "pages 300 and 301 and 302 and maybe some more".

"page 300 f." = "pages 300 and 301".
#4Authorjmstuart (386235) 30 Oct 09, 10:44
f. - und folgende
ff. - und fortfolgende
#5AuthorGart30 Oct 09, 12:20
I do think they ought to have a period in English too, but it also wouldn't surprise me if some style sheet somewhere now preferred them without.

I can't confirm that ff. is italicized; in fact, I don't think I've ever seen it italicized.

Some sort of cautionary marking for the ones that are now uncommon might also be helpful.

Many modern style guidelines now advise against using the single f. at all, because it's clearer just to put 301-302. Even for the double ff. it's preferable to give an exact page range if possible.

To my knowledge, I've never seen et seq. used, much less et s(e)qq.; I would guess that it's largely either obsolete or obsolescent, though it might have been slower to disappear in legal and/or BE circles.

I agree that if you wrote out something in full in English, it should probably be 'and the following page(s)'; however, since 'page(s)' is usually already understood, I usually think of it as simply 'and following.' Somehow it's the 'the' that seems a bit off.

I also agree with Chicago that there should not be any space preceding ff. or f., that is, between the page number and the abbreviation, but I'm not sure you can convey that in a dictionary entry. Basically, anyone working with reference conventions needs to own a complete source, like Oxford, Chicago, MLA, or all of the above.

There have been several discussions on these over the years, some probably with more citations from typical authorities.

#6Authorhm -- us (236141) 02 Nov 09, 21:16
Ich denke es gibt einen Konsens, dass es auf Englisch auch f. und ff. heißen muss. Kursiv habe ich es glaub ich noch nie gesehen, obwohl unsere Uni zumindest behauptet, dem Chicago Manual zu folgen.
Die Langform hieß für mich immer "folgende", "ferner folgende" bzw. "following", "further following", aber vielleicht hat sich das mein Hirn nur ausgedacht, damit ich es mir besser merken kann. Ich wurde damit zumindest immer verstanden.
#7Authorjak03 Nov 09, 11:13
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