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    English missing

    Your class are planning a trip to Nottingham.

    Subject

    Your class are planning a trip to Nottingham.

    Context/ examples
    Are there any Leo readers out there this morning from England? I am from the USA and teach English here in Germany. I have a teacher's edition of a book published in Germany which states: Your class are planning a trip to Nottingham. In American English we would say: Your class is planning a trip to Nottingham. But we also say: The government wants to increase taxes. I believe in England you say: The government want to increase taxes. or: Shell has increased the price of gas. (BE: Shell have increased the price of petrol.

    Can someone tell me if the sentence: Your class are planning a trip ..........is actually correct? I appreciate your help and hope you have a wonderful week!!!

    Linda
    AuthorLinda from Modesto, California17 Oct 05, 08:17
    Comment
    I'm not sure whether you're in the correct forum but anyway...

    As soon as I saw the headline I said to myself that it's wrong.

    As a native BE-speaker I would definitely say "your class IS". "Class" is, after all, singular. The plural is sometimes used in the way you menotion and I always correct the media when they do.
    #1AuthorPLS (UK/De)17 Oct 05, 08:30
    Comment
    If the emphasis is on all the children planning it, then the plural is OK. "class" is seen as a sort of plural noun.

    This appears to be a development in the language (I wonder when it started?): it's not generally considered wrong.
    #2AuthorGhol ‹GB›17 Oct 05, 08:36
    SuggestionYou class are planning a trip to Nottingham.
    Context/ examples
    'm not sure whether you're in the correct forum but anyway...

    As soon as I saw the headline I said to myself that it's wrong.

    As a native BE-speaker I would definitely say "your class IS". "Class" is, after all, singular. The plural is sometimes used in the way you menotion and I always correct the media when they do.
    PLS (UK/De)
    Comment
    Thank you so much PLS. That is why I prefer to use English books that are published in England when teaching English in Germany. All too often there are mistakes in the books published in Germany.
    #3AuthorLinda (AE)17 Oct 05, 08:38
    Comment
    @Ghol:
    "This appears to be a development in the language"
    interessant :-)
    ich kann mich noch gut erinnern, daß in meiner übersetzerausbilding großer wert auf diesen unterschied gelegt wurde:
    the police are - die polizei ist *
    the class are - die klasse ist...

    ich hätte jetzt gedacht, die entwicklung wäre die umgekehrte, nämlich daß man vom plural zum singular übergeht.


    * leicht ot: "A hundred per cent of the police are polite." -> der renner im phonetik-unterreicht ;-)

    viele grüße,
    #4Authorigorella17 Oct 05, 08:43
    Comment
    @igorella: I say that it seems to be a development, but that's merely my personal observation, as I have only noticed it so acutely in the last few years as a translator, but also based on my understanding of the way English has been changing over recent decades.

    @Linda: it is not a mistake.
    #5AuthorGhol ‹GB›17 Oct 05, 08:50
    Comment
    @igorella

    You're right about "police". That is always plural though I don't know why. When I first learnt German, I always said "die Polizei sind" instead of "ist.

    If you said "the police force", then it is clearly singular but "the police" always plural. English is a strange language!
    #6AuthorPLS (UK/De)17 Oct 05, 08:53
    Comment
    @Linda: This article describes AE/BE usage of singular/plural verbs for collective nouns:
    http://www.learnenglish.org.uk/grammar/archiv...
    #7AuthorAnne(gb)17 Oct 05, 08:58
    Comment
    the police, the class, the government, ...
    For me these are singular units and I shall conjugate them as such.

    #8AuthorAlan (US/DE)17 Oct 05, 09:00
    Comment
    Aus Michael Swan "Practical English Usage" (Oxford University Press 1995):

    503 - Singular nouns with plural verbs: groups of people

    In BE, singualr words like family, team, government, which refer to groups of people, can be used with either singular or plural verbs and pronouns:
    The team is/are going to lose.

    Plural forms are common when the group is considered as a collection of people doing personal things like deciding, hoping or wanting; and in these cases we use who, not which, as a relative pronoun. Singualr forms are more common when the group is seen as an impersonal unit:
    My family have decided to move to Nottingham. They think ...
    The average British family has 3.6 members. It is smaller ...

    Ich weiß nicht, ob diese Regel gültig bzw. richtig ist - das können nur NS beantworten -, finde sie aber ganz einleuchtend.

    Vielleicht hilfts ja ein wenig weiter. Hoffe ich zumindest :-)
    #9AuthorDeepThought17 Oct 05, 09:15
    Comment
    @Deep Thought

    That information sounds the same as in the site to which Anne gave the link. It certainly sheds a lot of light on the subject but it's a shame it doesn't use "police" in any of its many examples.

    I have never ever heard "the police is" in UK (although to Alan, that is the only correct version). Has anyone else?
    #10AuthorPLS (UK/De)17 Oct 05, 09:24
    Suggestionboth are acceptable
    Comment
    perhaps I am the oldest here, but perhaps not the wisest......
    we can(as the English have no language legislation as in German) use both forms:

    the class are- means there is a group of individuals
    (perhaps with differenideas, but are together)
    the class is- means the class as a whole, as one entity
    #11Authorjohn(von Ingelbach)17 Oct 05, 10:40
    Sources
    Context/ examples
    West Yorkshire Police is the fifth largest police force in the UK responsible for the…
    Comment
    @ PLS (UK/De)
    Never heard of "Police is" in UK? Well go ask the West Yorkshire Police (see above).
    Besides I never said it was the *only correct* version. It just sound too strange too my ears and IMO doesn't make that much sense. If I want to say something plural about police, I'd rephrase it to "the policemen are".
    Otherwise you can go along with John's argument if you wish.
    #12AuthorAlan (US/DE)17 Oct 05, 11:07
    Sources
    www.surrey.police.uk
    Comment
    The Surry Police is too.
    #13AuthorAlan (US/DE)17 Oct 05, 11:13
    Comment
    @Alan,

    Thanks for those links. I did say, above, that one says "the police force is". In your quotation about West Yorks. police, it is the force which is meant.

    On Surrey Police's site, they do indeed say "Surrey Police is not responsible for the content of any external internet sites". To me that also means the force and force is singular.

    On that same site (Surrey Police), they also say:

    "Police in East Surrey are reminding motorists..."

    "Police in East Surrey are warning lorry drivers..."

    "Police are appealing for witnesses..." etc
    #14AuthorPLS (UK/De)17 Oct 05, 11:23
    Comment
    @Alan: It seems to me that the singular verb is used in BE when referring to an organisational entity of the police like a constabulary, which is why you'll find "Surrey Police is", "West Yorkshire Police is". It's interesting to note that "police" begins with a capital letter in such circumstances - it's the name of the force or constabulary. However, I doubt you'd find many (if any) instances in BE of a singular verb in phrases like "Since the accident, the police ... been appealing for witnesses". "has" just sounds strange to British ears.
    @PLS: I'll let you into a little secret. Since this has been discussed a fair bit in the past, I found the British Council link by googling "the police are" + site:.leo.org. If you fancy some light lunchtime reading, here's the link:
    http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=+"the+police+are"+site:.leo.org&hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&start=0&sa=N
    Mahlzeit!
    #15AuthorAnne(gb)17 Oct 05, 11:48
    Comment
    @Anne:

    Thanks for the support and for the link. Some good lunch-time reading there, indeed!

    As a compartive newcomer to Leo, I was not aware that this bone had been well chewed before.

    Dir auch "Mahlzeit!", as well as to everyone else who is "Leo-ing" in their lunch-break, of course!
    #16AuthorPLS (UK/De)17 Oct 05, 11:59
    Comment
    @PLS - Leo-ing in my lunch break?? All the time (when there's nothing else to do - which right now, there isn't )!!!
    #17AuthorKatharina17 Oct 05, 12:02
    Comment
    @Katharina,

    yes, same in my company at the moment; that's how I got into Leo!

    Maybe it's not a good sign for the German economy!!??
    #18AuthorPLS (UK/De)17 Oct 05, 12:05
    Comment
    @PLS: That must be it. My company have / has??? been bitten by the outsourcing bug... China... Spain... Czech Republic... anywhere but here ... B@st@rds...
    :-(
    #19AuthorKatharina17 Oct 05, 12:20
     
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