ich kann nur aus meiner Zeit in England (leider auch schon gut 10 Jahre her *seufz*) berichten, daß Euphemismen wie "s...ugar" bei meinen kleinen Gastgeschwistern nicht geahndet wurden. Durchgängig hörte man "blast" oder auch ein "oh bugger", "blimey" - aber was aktuell ist, tut mir leid... ich bin auch schon zu alt und zu lange weg *seufz*

Lis, isn't it nice that you have a family that doesn't swear at all! I was brought up not to (and suffered the old "wash your mouth out with soap" punishment at the hands of my mother) but I admit to getting a bit foul-mouthed as an adult, especially at the most inopportune moments.

You're going to probably get lots of suggestions, but I say that swearing is a matter of perspective. Some will tell you it's perfectly OK, and give you every bad example in the book. Others, like me, will give you suggestions that will sound very silly or mild or outdated to those who enjoy their spicy swear words. To each his own, but once you offend someone with a swear word, the damage is done.

My suggestions:
Rats! Drat! Dang! Blast it! Shoot!

Quick story: I used to work at a stock brokerage here in Germany where a German colleague would say on the phone to customers from time to time "F*** you". Frankly, we native speakers in the office were shocked. We told our colleague that he didn't have any clue as to how that comes across in English. That, of course, is apart from the fact that you do not talk that way to customers, not matter what language you're speaking. Yes, you might think that nasty thought, but verbally express it....NO NO NO.
Since then I've come across this with a number of Germans who think saying F*** you or F***ng sounds really cool. I believe that because they're using words in a foreign language they really don't understand how bad they sound. But actually, that's no excuse.

@Bahama Mama
yes the "swearing" in my family remained pretty much on the level of "Fiddlesticks" "You rotten toad" "What a load of old codswallop" etc.
I agree with what you say. My Mum was a manager and a sales rep. came into her office, blew cigarette smoke at her and said" What a bloody awful day, I haven't sold a f....ing thing" and my Mum thought "Yes and you aren't going to sell anything here either!" - the damage had been done!

Ich glaube, dass Problem liegt nicht in England, sondern in Deutschland (gehe ich recht in der Annahme, dass du Deutschen Englisch beibringst?). Ich kann leider nicht viel dazu sagen, wie es in England, USA etc. gehandhabt wird, aber ich muss zugeben, dass mir doch ab und mal ein S*** oder F*** rausrutscht. Und dass obwohl ich eigentlich kein Typ bin, der ständig flucht oder schlecht erzogen ist. Es hat sich, glaub ich, ein bisschen eingebürgert, anstatt "Mist" oder "Sch*****" o.ä. (auf Deutsch) lieber die englischen Wörter zu benutzen. Vielleicht auch weil man dann ein bisschen das Gefühl hat, dass es nicht so dramatisch ist, weil es nicht die eigene Sprache ist. (Obwohl man natürlich weiss, was damit gemeint ist).

I, too, have no direct experience of swearing in BE for the last 20 years, or so, but, imo, there is no excuse for it in 'normal' usage (it's a bit different if you hit your thumb with a hammer, isn't it ?), since swearing indicates to me that someone has lost control, has run out of suitable arguments, is too lazy to think of 'normal' replies, and so on.

and I don't think that there are 'safe' swear words -most of the 'harmless' ones replace serious swearing, but what was intended is obvious.

isn't "pants!" moderately recent? Said for anything that the speaker disapproves of and can be used as an adverb, too - "the whole trip was completely pants"
Not sure about the source or connotations, I think it's from gay usage, but I might be very much mistaken.

Ich fahre morgens regelmäßig mit einer Gruppe Jugendlicher im Bus, die sich immer total hip vorkommen, wenn sie in jedem Satz midestens ein englisches Schipfwort benutzen, was zu meist sehr eintönigen "F***" und "S***" Aneinanderreihungen führt. Es befinden sich auch ein paar Mädchen in der Gruppe, die in der Regel als "Bitch" bezeichnet werden und ich frage mich jedesmal, ob die überhaupt wissen, was die da labern und wie das auf englische Muttersprachler wirkt (die öfter als man denkt im Bus sind, weil eine englische Kaserne in der Nähe ist).

Ich gebe zu, dass ich in letzter Zeit auch viel auf Englisch fluche und eher "(Holy) crap" sage, als "Mist", "Sch****" oder ähnliches. Ich versuche gerade, mir das wieder abzugewöhnen. Wie offensif könnte man "crap" einstufen? Ich habe das aus Friends abgeguckt, wo die bekannten 4-letter-words vermieden wurden, allerdings sind die Eltern eines Kindes doch ziemlich entsetzt, als dieses Kind das Wort aufschnappt, also dachte ich, ich frage mal einen native speaker.

We watched that episode yesterday! I told my husband that "crap" seems to be slightly less rude (although still rude enough) in the USA - it's always hard to decide how rude something is, I know, but people seem to use it a little more in the US than in GB.

This reminds me of an old discussion: related discussion

"Pants" hab ich öfter in UK gehört. In Irland gab's häufig "Crudmuffins", was ich charmant finde. Kraftausdrücke sind in beiden Ländern Teil der alltagssprache. In Irland hört man auch oft die Variante "Feck" oder "Feckin"'.
Ich glaube, Leute sollten nicht unbedingt die Kraftausdrüce benutzen, wohl aber lernen, denn es macht ja Spaß, sie zu benutzen. Im Alltagsleben werden sie auch dauernd gebraucht. ich denk es ist wichtig, zu lernen, wann man die benutzt und wann nicht.
Sogar im Job kann's unterschiedlich sein.
Ich hab mal in Irland als Games Tester gearbeitet. Da wurde heftigst geflucht und es war akzeptabel und kam ganz natürlich, weil die Spiele ja auf Frustration beruhen... In anderen Jobs z.B. sollte man das besser lassen.
Einmal wollte ich irgendein Dokument mit nem Projektmanager belabern, und da er gerade ein wichtiges Gespräch (über Mädels?) mit nem Engineer hatte, empfahl mir der Mann, offzufucken. Nicht so gut. War aber nicht weiter ernst gemeint. Nach einer Einladung ins Pub und ner kurzen Entschuldigung war alles wieder gut.

Da wäre ich auch dankbar für Erklärungen von englischen Muttersprachlern. Zum einen habe ich nämlich den Eindruck, daß man "Swearing" in GB moralisch viel entrüstender findet als in Deutschland, wo es zwar als Zeichen von schlechter Erziehung gilt, ab nicht immer als ehrverletzend empfunden wird. Andererseits habe ich nirgends so viele Schimpfwörter gehört wie in England und nicht nur von schlecht erzogenen Leuten. Also wie ist das, in welchen Situationen ist es in GB üblich zu fluchen und in welchen ist es absolut tabu? Ich persönlich fluche eigentlich weder auf deutsch noch auf englisch, habe einfach nicht das Bedürfnis danach.

@Bahama Mama
- what a relief to discover I'm not the only one who had to swallow soap as a child! (To this day it makes me puke even if a little shampoo gets on my lips!)
I vividly recall how I thought "bird turd" sounded poetic, but after the dish detergent treatment my mother warned that the next time she would use bleach!

So much for strict upbringing - but it certainly instills an aversion to swearing.
(However, I could not bring it upon myself to raise my own boys that way!)

People in GB use the word gay to describe something that they think is rubbish.
A minger (nothing to do with Munich)is an insulting name for a less than attractive woman.
I'll try and remember some more.

The soap-punishment might be a reason why swearing is perceived as a seriously immoral behaviour by many English people, whereas in Germany I think it is more a sign of bad manners and lacking self-control.

Was ich momentan im hohen Norden GBs immer wieder hoere, ist z.B. "Bloody hell!", verstaerkt auch "bloody f***ing (whatever)"; "bullocks", "Oh bugger" etc. "Blimey" hoert man auch, aber eher als Ausruf des Erstaunens ("Wahnsinn!" "Nicht zu fassen" oder so).
"Bloody hell" wird doch aber spaetestens mit Harry Potter 4 movie wieder voll in Mode kommen, oder? ;-) (Ist ja Ron's Lieblingsausruf...)
"Bullocks" habe ich uebrigens auch schon unseren Oberprofessor im Doktoranden-Seminar sagen hoeren. Das wird dann wohl auch fuer 18-25jaehrige nicht allzu gewagt sein, schaetze ich mal.

Meiner Erfahrung nach haengt es stark von der einzelnen Person ab, wie ok fluchen ist. Meine (britische) Chefin flucht wie ein Fuhrknecht (und das in lupenreinem Oxford-Englisch), F**k, s**t, bastard etc in jedem zweiten Satz. Tatsaechlcih habe ich mene Kenntnisse ueber einglische Schimpfwoerter ahutpsaechlich von ihr. Meine anderen britischen Kollegen sind da wesentlich zurueckhaltender (gelegetnlich hoere ich mal "crap", und das eher leise gemurmelt und nie auf eine Person bezogen), die meisten habe ich aber noch nie fluchen gehoert.
Von daher wuerde ich mal sagen, das fluchen zumindest wesentlich weniger ueblich ist als in Deutschland, und im Buero schon gar nicht.

Swallowing soap as a punishment is dumb idea... one I've experienced. All it does is mke a kid introverted and not want to speak. Anyone who still does this to children should be put in Gaol. Normally the idiots that do this are swearing all the time themselves ("Iv I 'ear you swearing one more fuckin' time I'll wash your bloody mouth out" - something you can hear a lot being said to children by their assi parents in Pompey or Luton of an evening as you go round Asda shopping).

As a kid I was never aloud to swear, I only started when at secondary school after realising everyone else did it. I don't swear that much now, just the words 'bloody hell' crop up from time to time - much to the amusment of my wife... she seems to thinks it some funny British joke.

'Wanker' seems to be very common now, and 'fucker' is often heard. I think though some English words are more accepatable than in America and vice verse. Bastard is often used in England, even among friends calling each other bastards ("How are you, you bastard"!?!) - I believe it's a pretty bad to use in America though. Anyone from the US agree?

bollocks is used all the time to - not to be confused with 'The dog's bollocks', which means something great. I once heard someone describe Google as 'the dog's bollocks of search engines.

@Lis: To get back to your original question... I'm not in that age group, but have children who are. My *observation*, for what it's worth, is that they use f*** and f***ing amongst their "mates", in an informal situation, in much the same way as our generation might use "bloody". At home, the occasional F word might be used as we're not the sort of parents to have a fit of the vapours on hearing it. They wouldn't use it in front of an older person outside the immediate family, certainly not in front of grandparents nor in front of a uni lecturer/tutor unless the lecturer was close to them in age and they were being matey down the pub.

I'm doing a year abroad in Germany as the 3rd year of my degree in England - so I've not been away long and have a good idea of what is acceptable amongst 'young' people.

I would say that saying F**k in a classroom environment, such as the one you described, is never accepatble. At home or in ones own complany, you may use swear words, if you so choose. However, even at 21 I find it highly inappropriate to swear in front of anyone you don't know well, such as a teacher.

As highlighted before, I think your students probaly see it as cool to use English swear words . I often hear young people here say something in English as if it is cool to do so.

As most topics in this forum, also swearing depends heavily on the context :)
I mean that at one end you find environments (well above gutter-level) where *not* to swear would be frowned at and might get you classified as "not-really-human".
At the other end there are environments where one is not expected to suggest that he or she might consider swearing even under extreme conditions.
And of course all possible intermediate levels, ranging from only-mild-swearing-tolerated to heavy-cursing-recommended-if-required.
It's not an easy world indeed.

Passt nicht direkt dazu, aber wie kann man swear=schwören und swear=fluchen im Englischen auseinanderhalten?
Ich kannte bisher nur "schwören" und bin erst vor Kurzem durch Zufall auf die zweite Übersetzung gestoßen. Hoffentlich habe ich es nicht schon öfter unwissentlich falsch angewendet.

@wk(at): Man kann das normalerweise vom Zusammenhang erkennen. Als Kind fand ich das aber besonders lustig, als wir gelernt haben, dass man vor Gericht bei einer Zeugenaussage einen Eid auf die Bibel ablegen muß - "to swear on the Bible" kam mir nach den "Mund-mit-Seife-ausspülen"-Drohungen in der Klosterschule ziemlich widersprüchlich vor!

@wk(at): Don't worry. As Mary says, you can tell from the context. When I still worked in-house, my colleagues and I often went out "for a swear", meaning going to the solicitor or notary for a sworn translation, not going outside to turn the air blue!

I would agree with 'odondon irl' If you swear it is a good habit to break otherwise you could end up a swearaholic and split words just to put the 'f' word in or even attach it to every word spoken. I have known people to do just that. There is a sexist side to the problem insofar as swearing coming from a woman is downright disgusting to most men.
From memory:-
Q.when did you lose your driving license? A. On the f****** fifth of NoF******vember.
At a charity concert once where all performers were unpaid volunteers an accordionist came on stage and I heard the bloke next to me exclaim,'F*** me another Concerf******tina.
I'll swear to these on oath.

wk - Mary and Anne are right, you just have to figure it out from context. Other words for the same activity are "cursing" and the colloquial "cussing."

I'm not English, but I am a native speaker and only a _few_ years out of the demographic. As others have already said, I think swearing is a very individual matter, but I also have noticed a tendency among young Germans to use English swear words in unexpected ways or in situations that IMO don't call for such a big-gun response. For example, I once saw a very sweet, ordinarily mousy little female undergrad exclaim "fuck" when she dropped a pen while she was walking, in no particular hurry, down a hallway.

For me, "fuck" is really reserved for serious annoyance or frustration: missing a bus after running alongside it for two blocks, shattering the beautiful crystal decanter five minutes before you're supposed to present it to the wedding party, and so on. And even with such a conservative approach, in the past I was often said to cuss like a sailor. (Now I have kids, so swearing is out.)

I agree with Emma that students, no matter their age, should not swear in class. That's just basic respect for the teacher and the academic environment. As for what's acceptable, I'd allow "darn" (drat, dang) and "shoot" at the most; everything else is too cutesy ("oh, sugar"? Oh, please) or too contrived.

Stephen, I don't know, I hear my husband calling his friends and coworkers "bastards" at his (blue-collar, all-male) workplace all the time. Of course, they're liable to call him "fuckface" or "shithead" or some such right back. I think whether that kind of joshing is acceptable depends on your audience. My own father used to primly say that he wouldn't say certain things "in mixed company."

Please, Lis, tell your students that many native speakers would find their swearing offensive, a sign of poor education or upbringing, annoying, obnoxious, whatever. Swearing in a foreign language doesn't work very well, because one doesn't usually have a good sense of all the connotative meanings. It doesn't "feel" like swearing, which is precisely why one shouldn't do it. Inevitably one will swear in the wrong situation, and it could have very negative effects. I agree with you that f**k and s**t shouldn't be used in general. I admit that I come from a non-swearing family, but then lots of people do. I distinctly remember the one time my father said "crap", which is the worst thing I ever heard him say. Personally, I don't find crap as bad as s**t, but your students still shouldn't say it often. If they are saying one or two words repeatedly, they just are being lazy and not fully expressing their frustration, annoyance, anger, whatever. There are plenty of acceptable ways to do that.

I agree with Kathleen that darn, drat, dang, shoot are ok in class. If someone wants to say, "oh, sugar", why not? I'd rather hear someone say something cutesy than hear him say f**k after dropping a pen. Rats is fine, too.

Can I just once again mention the other recent thread on the issue of bad language, also worth reading, entitled 'Schwein - very rude?':
related discussion

A key point that bears repeating is that movies, TV, and pop songs are not reliable guides to everyday behavior. Not all Brazilians live for steamy love affairs, not all Indians run around singing and dancing, not all Scots shoot up on heroin, not all Chinese practice kung fu, not all Germans wear Nazi uniforms or lederhosen, and, amazingly enough, not all English speakers listen to rap music and use foul language in normal conversation. (-:

The target audience of the American entertainment industry, and its imitators worldwide, is teenage boys and young men 12-25, because this group is the most malleable (read: poor impulse control) when it comes to advertising. (Statistically speaking, that is; present company in this demographic excepted where appropriate. <g>)

Yes, guys in all-male groups do tend to use bad language among themselves when there's no one to stop them. And because boys and men tend to look to the movies or MTV for relaxation and escapism, they enjoy seeing an idealized image of themselves: powerful, grown-up, macho, and above all, free from those darn rules that make real life such a drag. Car chases and gunfights, unlimited sex, alcohol, and drugs, loud music and filthy language: all that is what being a real man is all about, right? (-;

But seriously, if your students wouldn't do those other things in public in real life, they shouldn't swear either. Few movies take place in ordinary offices and classrooms, so the 'But they all talk like that in the movies' argument is hardly relevant.

Of course there are some places in real life that are relatively free from rules. When I'm by myself at home, or among friends of my own age, sure, I might curse, depending on the circumstances. As Kathleen says, dropping a pen does not qualify, period, it's just not that dramatic. (Oh, darn. Bummer. Rats. Bother. Come back here, you dratted little ...)

If I'm suddenly in extremely sharp pain or have accidentally done something incredibly stupid -- banging my elbow hard, letting something burn on the stove, locking myself out -- then yes, very likely. But even then it would normally be 'Shit!' or 'Damn!', much less often 'Fuck!', which is the strongest word I would ever say at all.

But no matter how great the provocation, neither the S-word nor the F-word would ever (well, should ever) cross my lips in front of a boss, a teacher, a parent, or a child. That should be the rule for German-speaking students to take to heart.

(On a tangent: A couple of people asked specifically about 'crap.' It's about the same level as 'shit,' or only very slightly milder, so it should also generally be avoided in public. I personally don't use it at all as an exclamation, but when angry I might say 'a bunch of crap,' meaning total garbage, nonsense, useless stuff.)

So, Lis, if your students can't seem to learn to drop the habit, if I were you I would feel fully justified in docking their grades accordingly until they do, just as a boss might later give them a poor performance review.

Though you might try a less drastic method first -- like a jar for everyone to toss a euro into when they slip up, and use the proceeds to subsidize a round of beer one day after class. Unless that would actually be an incentive. (-;

One last point: All those bad words that are scatological or sexual are bad regardless of context. This is different from words like 'Schwein,' or 'dirty (rotten) bastard,' which can be strong, angry insults, but which don't make people flinch in and of themselves, like talismans.

I say that because a couple of people mentioned the word 'honor.' Maybe this is a cultural difference between German- and English-speaking countries, or between Europe and America, but I doubt that the concept of wounded honor would come to most Americans' minds just because of verbal name-calling.

If someone accused you of stealing or lying or cheating, yes, that would be an insult to your honor. But if he just called you a dirty bastard, you would be very angry, because it would be very rude, but your honor would not be seriously at stake. Or at least that's my impression; I'd be interested to hear other views on that.

I've really enjoyed reading people's comments about the inappropriate situations for swearing as just recently a work colleague witnessed such a situation! A young-ish guy was on the public train this morning (I'm a native speaker living in Sydney, Australia). Although Australians lead a relatively 'relaxed' lifestyle we don't always condone the use of offensive/insulting language. The guy was talking into his mobile (cell) phone. The conversation was F*ck this F*ckin that. Such was the offensive nature & monotomy of his speech - a stranger - a businessman - asked him politely to lower the tone of his voice. The young guy got really angry & started to hit the businessman. Needless to say the trains were delayed because of the incident & the police were called. Indeed there's a law that's in force that 'offensive language/behaviour i.e. swearing etc' is not permitted on public transport. & Yes like previous people I use swear words occasionally with friends or in a very casual situation like at a pub or on a building site, but not with my parents or elderly people, or with my boss & never in a formal situation e.g work (an office), @a language course etc or at a place where u don't know the people very well! As covered earlier the degree of swearing is interesting - some people consider 'Damn' & 'Bloody' very offensive while I don't ! It's said that swearing is a sign of a limited vocabulary, lack of imagination & professionalism! Again context, persons involved & situation play a part. Yes it's cool because of the 'shock factor' but amusing because swearing reminds me of really young kids who try something because it's new or because it's something they can't do in front of their parents. This doesn't mean, of course, it's acceptable to use it frequently & casually in the classroom! In High School one teacher had a 'swear box' - everytime someone in class used offensive language - they had to forfeit coins into the box. The money was then donated to charity after a particular period! Don't know if this allowable these days but it made us think twice about what we said & how we said it!!

Thanks for so many replies. I sometimes am not sure whether I'm totally out of touch (haven't been to the UK for 18 months) and am very relieved to hear that you agree that my students shouldn't swear (they DID question whether I had any idea about what young people feel about such words when I told them that I find swearing unacceptable! And I'm not THAT old, really, only just over the wrong side of 40!!).
I agree that at the moment it seems to be the in thing to swear in English, for example, in our local department store they sell fridge magnets which say F..K the F...ing F....er etc. (masses of them too!). I wonder whether they would put them out on display if it was something similar in German ??
Anyway I shall tell them today that I have conferred with other native speakers who agree that they shouldn't be swearing in class, and that what they do down the pub is entirely their own business! Thanks again :o)

Ich denke für das Verständnis der deutschen Seite, bzw den englisch-deutschen Unterschied, ist der Begriff der persönlichen Ehre tatsächlich entscheidend.

Für einen Deutschsprachigen klingt "Scheiße!", und das als analog empfundene "F*ck!"/"Sh*t!", zwar derb aber nicht schockierend weil keine Person miß- oder verachtet wurde.

Bei "Du Schwein!" hingegen handelt es sich um einen Angriff auf die Ehre einer Person welche eine viel stärkere Norm als nur die reinen Umgangsformen verletzt.
Und zwar die ja auch strafrechtlich bewehrte Norm des Ehrschutzes.

@Ly - in der Klasse meiner Tochter müssen die Kinder auch in eine Kasse einzahlen, wenn Sie ein Schimpfwort benutzen.

Im englischen Sprachraum gibt es keine "anständige" Situation wann man das Wort "Fuck" verwenden darf/soll. Es hört sich genauso krass an wie das Wort "Fotze" im deutschen Sprachraum. Obwohl ich als Amerikanerin bin kann ich mir nicht vorstellen daß das Wort "Schwein" so schlimm sein kann wie das Wort "fuck". Ich denke nicht daß das Wort "Schwein" vugärischer als Ausdruck wie "mother fucking asshole". "Fuck" ist ein sehr hartes Wort und enthält eine etwas gewaltige sexuelle Bedeutung. Man sollte, vor allem als Ausländer/in im englischen Sprachraum das Wort nie verwenden.

Ich hoffe, daß dieser Post niemanden beleidigt hat.

Im englischen Sprachraum gibt es keine "anständige" Situation wann man das Wort "Fuck" verwenden darf/soll. Es hört sich genauso krass an wie das Wort "Fotze" im deutschen Sprachraum. Obwohl ich als Amerikanerin bin kann ich mir nicht vorstellen daß das Wort "Schwein" so schlimm sein kann wie das Wort "fuck". Ich denke nicht daß das Wort "Schwein" vugärer als ein Ausdruck wie "mother fucking asshole". "Fuck" ist ein *sehr* hartes Wort und enthält eine sehr gewaltige sexuelle Bedeutung. Man sollte, vor allem als Ausländer/in im englischen Sprachraum das Wort nie verwenden.

Ich hoffe, daß dieser Post niemanden beleidigt hat.

Im englischen Sprachraum gibt es keine "anständige" Situation wann man das Wort "Fuck" verwenden darf/soll. Es hört sich genauso krass an wie das Wort "Fotze" im deutschen Sprachraum. Obwohl ich als Amerikanerin bin kann ich mir nicht vorstellen daß das Wort "Schwein" so schlimm sein kann wie das Wort "fuck". Ich denke nicht daß das Wort "Schwein" vugärer als ein Ausdruck wie "mother fucking asshole". "Fuck" ist ein *sehr* hartes Wort und enthält eine sehr gewaltige sexuelle Bedeutung. Man sollte, vor allem als Ausländer/in im englischen Sprachraum das Wort nie verwenden.

Ich hoffe, daß dieser Post niemanden beleidigt hat.

Entschüldigen Sie mich, Daß mein Post 3 Mal erscheint. Das lag leider dran, das ich eine Fehlermeldung von der Leo Webseite ständig bekommen habe.

Niamh

@Mark: F**k may not sound too bad to a German speaker (you said "zwar derb aber nicht schockierend") because the German speaker interprets it as a word meaning "to have sexual intercourse with", but for the vast majority of American English speakers at least, that is not all that the word means. You said that f**k really isn't that bad because "keine Person miß- oder verachtet wurde". In fact, that is very much part of the meaning of the word and why it is marked "obscene" in the American Heritage Dictionary. The first meaning is "to have sexual intercourse with", but the second definition is "to victimize". As a noun it means "a despised person". The term f**k over means "to treat unfairly, to take advantage of". The word implies to most English speakers violence, aggression and misusing another person in the most personal and devastating way. I don't deny that f**k is used excessively by some people in a way that, for them perhaps, lessens the impact of the word, but that doesn't mean that people hearing them don't feel like they are being verbally assaulted every time they hear it. Again, I strongly suggest that Germans, and others, NOT use this word in public, at work, even at the bar. Those who want to say it in the privacy of their own homes, probably won't be offending anyone, but really, if that's where people choose to use the word, I think that's a shame.

@ Liz GB
why don't you tell your students that swearing isn't cool, just boring ?

The epitome of intelligent swearing is to use it so rarely that when you do it shocks everyone!
My first semester students are required to write papers of 10-15 pages in length. I tell them I will accept a deviation from that of 3 pages - 18 at the max, but if they turn in a 7-page paper it's got to be goddamn good.
They gasp every time.

Liz GB, or have them read Mark Twain's "The Awful German Language" (http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html). He claims that Germans can't swear properly (i.e.: German swearwords SOUND to mild to him). I think what Mr Clemens didn't realize that German swearwords do sound bad to German ears, as English s.w. do to English ears. While learning a foreign language, swearwords are just like any other kind of vocabulary; you need to grow up with a language to fully understand their impact.

Here's the excerpt:
"I heard lately of a worn and sorely tried American student who used to fly to a certain German word for relief when he could bear up under his aggravations no longer -- the only word whose sound was sweet and precious to his ear and healing to his lacerated spirit. This was the word Damit. It was only the sound that helped him, not the meaning; [3] and so, at last, when he learned that the emphasis was not on the first syllable, his only stay and support was gone, and he faded away and died.

3. It merely means, in its general sense, "herewith."

I think that a description of any loud, stirring, tumultuous episode must be tamer in German than in English. Our descriptive words of this character have such a deep, strong, resonant sound, while their German equivalents do seem so thin and mild and energyless. Boom, burst, crash, roar, storm, bellow, blow, thunder, explosion; howl, cry, shout, yell, groan; battle, hell. These are magnificent words; the have a force and magnitude of sound befitting the things which they describe. But their German equivalents would be ever so nice to sing the children to sleep with, or else my awe-inspiring ears were made for display and not for superior usefulness in analyzing sounds. Would any man want to die in a battle which was called by so tame a term as a Schlacht? Or would not a consumptive feel too much bundled up, who was about to go out, in a shirt-collar and a seal-ring, into a storm which the bird-song word Gewitter was employed to describe? And observe the strongest of the several German equivalents for explosion -- Ausbruch. Our word Toothbrush is more powerful than that. It seems to me that the Germans could do worse than import it into their language to describe particularly tremendous explosions with. The German word for hell -- Hölle -- sounds more like helly than anything else; therefore, how necessary chipper, frivolous, and unimpressive it is. If a man were told in German to go there, could he really rise to thee dignity of feeling insulted?"
(Mark Twain)

Lis, I'm probably at least as old as you are, but, unlike you, I spend almost all my time in England, only occasionally visiting Germany and Austria on business.

Now, what I think I have observed over the last twenty years or so is a phenomenon known in marketing circles as a "trickle effect". It seems to me that there is a class issue here, and that in the past few decades, swearing has become somewhat less common amongst the upper and upper-middle classes, and somewhat more common amongst the lower-middle and so-called "working" classes, many of whom, as I am sure you know, do not actually work.

This makes me sound like a terrible snob, and perhaps I am, but the social effect of the routine use of swear-words nowadays seems to me to be to give the impression of one's belonging to a somewhat lower social stratum. This is not to say that those higher up the social scale never deserve to have their mouths washed out: when the occasion demands it, they will often swear with astonishing fluency and style.

Perhaps it's time for you to take a nice long holiday in this sceptred isle, listen carefully to the conversation of as many people of all backgrounds as you can in whatever time you have available, and decide for yourself whether it has become, as some say, a septic isle.

@Joe W,

When I were a whippersnapper, I worked as a golf caddy for a top QC. He was frightfully posh, but swore like a navvy. I used to think it sounded wonderful when he hit his ball in the water and would boom "Oh Raymond, what a silly c*** you are." Peter O'Toole is a more famous example of a very well spoken person who can say "bollocks" with as much theatre as if he were reciting Shakespeare.

I have also noticed that German speakers tend to use English swearwords both inappropriately to the situation (well, if swearing can be considered appropriate at all) and without apparent awareness of their effect. I was quite shocked the first time I heard "f+++" and "s+++" used in this way. They are often also used in the wrong part of the sentence, E.g. "Sh** this Auto, the F***" adding an amusement effect to the hapless and unwitting vulgarity.

Like many of the English-speakers who have posted here, my sisters and I were strictly brought up not to use swear words, and the worst words my parents ever used were "damn", "bloody" and "bastard" (but only when they thought we weren't listening.) Albeit one of my father's famous statements was: "I won't have any of this bloody swearing in my house!" The nuns at school threatened to wash our mouths out with soap and water for swearing - and they actually carried out the threat on occasions (usually on the boys). The swear jar was also used (later I think, by less sadistic nuns).

I don't see "sugar" or "sugar biscuit" as "cutesy" - to me it is simply more used by older people, like my mother, who make more effort to check their speech. Other substitutes are "fudge", "Cripes" (for Christ), "bleeding" (for bloody) etc. My mother wouldn't say "fudge" though, as it wouldn't even occur to her to use any kind of "F-word"! If she caught me using a swearword, she would make a sarcastic remark along the lines of "If you're supposed to be so good at languages, why can't you mind your own language?" etc.

Which reminds me of the British sitcom "Mind your language" - about an English class for a mixed group of foreigners, who made hilarious mistakes etc.
Lis - why don't you make a "Mind Your Language" project with your students? Get them to discuss how they feel about swearing, how other people feel, different attitudes in different cultures, age groups etc. That should get them thinking, they can do a bit of research on naughty words (which they will enjoy) and at the same time they will be forced to re-evaluate their use of language. I think it could work.

Another recent debate on swearing,

  related discussion:fool "heftiges" Schimpfwort?

Perhaps the inquirer was one of your students? Or perhaps your students share his views on the necessity of swearwords to excercise one's freedom of speech ;o)

@Amy-MiMi: Hallo und danke für deine Antwort.
In Kathleen (US)s Beispiel in dem eine Deutschaprachige das F-Wort benutzt nachdem ihr ein Stift herunterfällt, oder bei einem Engländer der sich über sein "f***ing car" aufregt: wo wird dort die Ehre einer Person mißachtet? Und welcher Person? Des Stift/Auto-Herstellers?

Meine Anmerkung waren auch keineswegs als Argument, oder auch nur Endschuldigung, für das Verwenden von "four-letter-words" durch Deutschsprachige gemeint. Ich wollte nur zeigen warum Deutschsprachige bestimmte Verwendungen nicht richtig in ihrer Stärke einschätzen können. das ändert selbstverständlich nichts an ihrer Wirkung auf Muttersprachler. Was natürlich ein starkes Arguement ist diese Ausdrücke *nie* in den Mund zu nehmen.
Fremdsprachiges Fluchen (und das gilt für alle Fremdsprachen) geht halt oft spektakulär "in die Hose" weil einem das dafür notwendige Sprachgefühl fehlt.

Und im Umkehschluss: auch Englischsprachige sollten sich vorsehen, denn auch harmlose Worte wie "Schwein" die jede Goßmutter vor ihrem Enkel benutzt können als Titel oder Beschreibung einer konkreten Person benutzt bei Deutschsprachigen sehr "emotional" aufgenommen werden. Von möglichen Gerichtsverfahren einmal ganz abgesehen.

@Anja--CL

Don't confuse freedom of speech with poetic license.
Freedom of speech is the right to say whatever you want to - in other words to express your opinion.
Poetic license is the freedom to use whichever words you choose to do so.

O MIST!
Isn't that a sweet little way to vent your anger?

In der Familie meiner Frau (englisch) hat es dieses Problem nie gegeben. Meine Frau und ich haben allerdings vor 20 Jahren engen Kontakt zur britischen Armee gehabt. Da gab es eben Personen, für die "four-letter-words" an der Tagesordnung waren. Der Hintergrund war auch entsprechend.
Wenn ich Englisch lehren würde und Schüler mit derartigen Ausdrücken den Unterricht "auffrischen" würden, dann wäre es mir sicherlich ein Vergnügen, sie mal nach ihrem Familienhintergrund auszufragen. Ich habe schon einige Jugendliche zum Stottern gebracht mit der einfachen Frage: "Do you speak normal English, too?"

A co-worker of mine (German) got around this whole thing nicely by saying "Fucking!" and pronouncing it the German way when he was angry or upset. After all, that's just the name of a town in the South of the country, right? No harm in saying "Munich!" or "Würzburg!" either :-)

@TM
"Don't confuse freedom of speech with poetic license.
Freedom of speech is the right to say whatever you want to - in other words to express your opinion.
Poetic license is the freedom to use whichever words you choose to do so."

WOW, that's a real masterpiece! Is it a quotation or an original of yours?

TM, I'd define poetic license as the "right" to bend the facts a little to fit your plot, or to bend grammar or punctuation rules to fit your metre or style.

I don't see much difference (that you proclaim) between the act of stating one's opinion and the "choosing-the-words-to-do-so" part...

P.S. To plead "poetic license" you need to be a poet or a writer.

Hätte da noch "friggin"' als Ersatz für "f*ckin" anzubieten.

Hätte da noch "friggin"' als Ersatz für "f*ckin" anzubieten.

There is a Dutch drink called advocaat and it is made by Warnincks,Bols and Fockink amongst others.
If you have no preference, just ask the waiter for an advocaat,but if he insists on asking what kind, just say,"Bols"
Of course you can avoid this situation by asking for a Fockink advocaat at the start.

Not much else to add, really, is there? Except possibly that I did hear a BBC presenter say, "Crap" on the wireless the other day. I remember thinking the end of the world must be nigh for such an aberration to occur.

@Sherlock & Anja--CL,

Freedom of speech is a human and civil right, poetic license is a literary term.
Neither are open to a lot of subjective interpretation; they are t e r m s , not just words. Terms have fairly reliable (as it were: precise) definitions.

In Deutschland gibt es definitv gewisse Gruppen, die fuer englische Schimpfwoerter empfaenglich sind. Ist halt in den jeweiligen Kreisen "cool". Und Vorbilder gibt's ja genuegend. Bei den ganzen CDs mit "Parental guidance"-Aufkleber angefangen bis hin zu Filmen wie "Pulp Fiction", die eine extrem hohe swear-word-Dichte haben (trotzdem guter Film ;) ).

TM -- Genau, dann schlag mal nach, z.B. im Merriam-Webster's unter poetic license, ich zitiere: "deviation from fact, form, or rule by an artist or writer for the sake of the effect gained"

@JGMcl: That really makes me wish I liked advocaat... What a missed opportunity!
@Trevor: What?! Mark my words, there'll be letters to "Feedback".

The reason many Germans (myself included, I guess) often use swear words inappropriately is quite simple: We are never properly taught the rules of informal English (The most you might hear in school is something like: "This wrong construction is wrongly used by some native speakers", and of course these are the kinds of things that English teachers consider inherently bad and that are always being blamed on the Americans). Therefore the actual language spoken by Germans (note that having actual conversations on the level high school English aims for is practically impossible even for native speakers [and certainly impossible for anyone for whom English is not the first language anyway]) in everyday situations makes heavy use of hasty generalizations such as "*You better don't...", "*I could do it, but I don't wanna", ending the gerund in '-in' as often as the present participle or using "I's like" synonymously with "I said" - and of course using four-letter-words in all situations that a German equivalent that actually only matches under specific circumstances would be appropriate for. Nobody expects us to be able to infer the rules of formal English just from listening and reading, so how are we supposed to be able to master their informal equivalents?

@ ThomasJ
I don't quite see your point here. Blaming it on teachers that students are not taught to swear properly in English and thus make a$$es out of themselves? But surely only Germans who also swear in German attempt to swear in English, so that's not really much of an explanation or excuse for their rudeness.

Perhaps you could bring us closer to understanding Lis' students and their need to use swearwords in class -- or more general: the pathology of wanton swearword-using -- by revealing to us why exactly you felt compelled to use the following expression, without provocation whatsoever, in the   related discussion:auf...drauf
"The claim that any form of language is more "logical" than another is just complete bullshit."

I'm interested: why are you so fascinated with the word bullshit that you need to use it all the time at Leo? Perhaps you don't perceive it as rude? (Because your English teacher failed to teach you this? You would probably have laughed at her and thought her a prude old cow if she had tried.)

P.S. The "pro friendliness before noon" reply was NOT mine, btw...

@Anja: We've been over this already, I'm not blaming it on the teacher, I'm blaming it on the system. It's just nonsense that while learning English we are only focussing on one register - the most formal one. People will always feel the need to communicate on more informal levels and this communication is bound to fail if one side doesn't know the rules of it.

Just because swearing is perceived as rude by native speakers doesn't mean it is intended to be rude, the students are probably just trying to sound natural - and the best approximation to a natural form of language is what they see in movies that make a lot of use of words that are just not appropriate in more formal situations. And I have to agree - the kind of language that is used in movies or TV shows is actually closer to the language spoken by educated native speakers in informal contexts than the language used in textbooks.

I won't comment on why I chose to use the word "bullshit" in this thread. Suffice it to say, I had very good reasons to chose this particular word. And besides, you are completely and intentionally missing my point here.

@Trevor: If find your remark about a BBC presenter using the word "crap" interesting. My understanding of the word "crap" is that it is essentially the same word as "scrap" and it really means waste product or rubbish of any kind. This meaning, of course, includes shit, in its literal sense of excrement, which is, of course, a particular kind of waste product.

I do not therefore regard the use of the word "crap" as swearing when it is used to describe something as being of no worth. It is crude, perhaps, and a bit vulgar, and it can be used offensively, but generally speaking, I regard it as acceptable when used in its literal sense, in the same way as one can use the word "bastard" in its literal sense when the occasion demands.

@Joe: There is a situation where using the word "bastard" in its literal sense would be acceptable?

@ThomasJ: Indded there are such contexts. For instance, Mordred was said to be the bastard son of King Arthur. That is to say that King Arthur was not married to Mordred's mother, but was nonetheless Mordred's father. In this kind of context, there is no problem with the word "bastard".

On the other hand, if you steal my pencil, and I shout, "You bastard!", that would be swearing.

Bei uns in der Schweiz ist das mit der Flucherei ein bischen anders. Vor jedes Wort wird, und zwar von so ziemlich jeder Altersgruppe und Gesellschaftsschicht, zur Bekräftigung ein "huere" gesetzt (in Deutschland ist es dann wohl "saukalt", bei uns eben "huerechalt"). Auch "Schiessdräck" ist sehr beliebt. "Fuck" benutzt inzwischen wohl so ziemlich jeder.

Die Sache ist, dass es von vielen Deutschen gar nicht als Fluchen empfunden wird, weil unser Dialekt ja das Klischee der >>Zwergensprache<< hat, es klingt ja ach so >>niedlich<<, eben dieser JÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖ-Faktor.

Ich persönlich finde es aber in den meisten Fällen gar nicht notwendig und vermeide die Flucherei, mir entgleitet viel eher ein tiefes *haaaaaaaaaaaaaach Gott*.

Harmlose Fluchwörter kenne ich nicht, denn dann wären es ja wohl keine Fluchwörter, weder in Deutsch, Schweizerdeutsch noch in Englisch. In der Gegenwart von Kindern sollte man überhaupt nicht fluchen, die lernen das früh genug. Es ist für mich immer ein Ausdruck von Hilflosigkeit und mangelndem Selbstbewusstsein, wenn ich Kinder und Jugendliche (@Bus/Tram) so reden höre, alles schön gespickt mit Wörtern wie "Bitch", "behindert", "fuck", "Hurensohn" etc. Die elterliche Massnahme, den Mund mit Seife auszuspülen, wäre an dieser Stelle wohl doch nicht so falsch.

Wenn es sich bei der Gruppe von Schülern um Erwachsene handelt, ist es nicht schlimm, ihnen die entsprechenden Phrasen beizubringen, wichtig ist dabei jedoch in jedem Falle der Hinweis, wie diese vom muttersprachlichen Gegenüber aufgefasst werden. Nur, um Kultur-Clashes zu vermeiden (:

Hey Anja - kannst Du nicht offline bleiben, an Tagen wo DU schlechte Laune hast?

Some claim that swearing developed as a "civilised" means of conflict resolution - instead of smashing your opponent's skull with a club, as in the cave-men days, you can call him a number of creative names, or shout abuse with similar psychological effect, whilst avoiding the otherwise devastating physical effects.

This kind of civilised, virtual skull-smashing can also be witnessed occasionally in the refined and highly evolved communication between LEO contributors ;-).

Joe W:

I believe crap is derived from Crapper. Crapper being Thomas Crapper, a English plumber of some repute, some people even claim that he invented the toilet but other people say this is crap ;-)

Some people that Rap is derived from crap, the only thing missing being the 'C' :-)

There is of course the story told by the late David Niven,in his autobiography, about the film directory whose english was so poor that many made fun of him in his absence. He was aware of this and one day being fed up with all this fun at his expense, exclaimed the cast and crew in general,"You thinka you smart. You thinka I know fuck nothing about what you speak abouta me,but I know fuck all!"
A shipyard worker was walking below where the riveters were working using red hot rivets when one of these hot rivets fell down the back of shirt. In agony, shouted up to the riveter,"I say Claude, do be careful!"

@ThomasJ: I can't speak to language instruction in Germany, but I can say something from both a teacher's and a learner's perspective in general. Most language instruction focuses on formal registers because that is the level that is most generally appropriate, widely used and understood, and generally well-documented. It is a logical place to start. When teaching German, we generally teach students to say "Guten Morgen", although of course that's not what all native speakers would say in all situations. It is not helpful to a learner, however, to present him with the thirty (or whatever) available regional and social variations of this greeting. The learner would be overwhelmed and frustrated. So the textbook makers and teachers simplify.

The effective use of more informal registers relies on a certain level of "Sprachgefühl", which one doesn't have and can't develop without first learning the basics. It may be helpful to think of learning a musical instrument. Most people, in order to learn effective jazz improvisation skills, need to understand the structure of music, hear and play lots of music, practice scales and so on, before they can learn to create their own riffs. When studying martial arts, teachers often teach set exercizes or techniques, which students practice for years before they begin to learn freestyle. Language teachers teach formal language skills and students who are motivated to learn informal language, begin to notice differences ("That character said XY, but I thought we were supposed to say PQ; maybe I'll ask my teacher what the difference is.") and consult native speakers and dictionaries to determine what the differences are.

As for swear words, any good dictionary indicates register. So if I hear a word and look it up and see "derb", I know it's a word that I don't want to use. If I see "salopp", it might be something fun to learn, but it's a term I probably won't try out for the first time with my boss. Any language learner can and should learn to use a good dictionary. That way they can learn more natural language (television shows, movies, chatrooms) and vary registers without frequently offending others.

Finally, teachers can't teach everything everyone needs to know. They should provide the background and skills needed for learners to go out and learn on their own.

Can one say as a rule that the swearing from TV shows can be (moderately) used without causing (too much) offense? I can only judge from Friends and Scrubs and I don't find the swearing particularly offensive, but that may be because I'm not a native speaker.

In England there are strict rules over what can be said and done (controlled by the ITC).

There is also a Watershed at 9PM. Before the Watershed there's not really much nudity or swearing aloud (because of children watching etc.) After this it's a bit more relaxed. No idea about America though.

@Stephen: I understand that Sir Thomas Crapper was a Victorian engineer who did not invent but did substantially improve the design of the flushing W.C. The word "crap" is, however, much older, being traceable back to the middle ages at least. The really interesting question is: why did a man with a name like that choose that particular branch of engineering?

Joe W: LOL probably for the same reason Dr. Butt became a proctologist (I kid you not)
See thread from a few weeks about about names/occupations

Just last night on the (night) bus I heard it again: a young Austrian guy complaining "Oh f**k! Wir müssen hier zwei Minuten warten!".
He was saying it (the f-word) as if it were a kind of mild euphemism - obviously that's what is is to them: a "mild-mannered alternative" to German "Sch**ße". (Which would obviously be uncalled for in this situation.)

English swear words are also used in German/Austrian programmes shown during times when children could still be up, on the radio etc. I have also seen posters recently (all over the city) emblazoned "F**k me, I'm famous". I watched some children getting out of the tram right in front of about 4 or 5 of these posters (luckily the children were too little to be able to read). I'm sure that posters like that wouldn't be allowed in NZ. Would they be allowed in the UK or US, Canada etc.?

Not in Canada, Mary. You'd have the morality squad out! (kidding), but you would have enough protests by "concerned citizens" to have to remove them, if they ever even made it up, which I seriously doubt.
If I'm not mistaken, we do have a sort of censorship (I suppose I should know, but don't, about how formalized it is). Movies are also rated as general public, adult accompaniment, restricted, etc. which I think does not happen in Europe???

@RES-can: No, movies are also rated here, but I don't think there are so many categories. It's usually either "Jugendfrei" or an age limit is stated, e.g. "Jugendfrei ab 16"; "Ab 18" basically means "adults only" (although one may debate whether 18-year-olds are adults, but they are under Austrian law).

*** **** * * ****** *** * * ***,

ach so kann keiner lesen ;-)))
Warum werden hier worte als F**k, Sch**ße usw. geschrieben???
Geht es hier um PC oder um Sprache?
Meint ihr Fuck, Fork oder awas auch immer?
Ich empfände es hilfreich wenn die Begriffe als Klartext hier stünden.

http://apps.vienna.at/tools/kino/welcome.asp?...

@RES-can: Here's an example from a cinema. "Jugendverbot" is also used for prohibited viewing by minors. I'm not actually sure what the letters "FSK" stand for, but it obviously indicates the age limit (from whatever age).

@UGl: Manche von uns möchten eben nicht vulgär sein. Darum geht's ja in diesem Faden.

ich hab jetzt nicht die ganze diskussion gelesen, also kann es sein, dass das schon jemand gesagt hat. ich gehe momentan auf ein college in den staaten und hier ist es so, dass eigentlich jeder flucht und zwar unglaublich viel, aber sobald erwachsene dabei sind, werden dann diese "ersatzausdruecke" benutzt. das finde ich ein wenig laecherlich, weil eh jeder weiss, was gemeint ist. es macht also nicht wirklich einen unterschied.

@Mary (nz/A): FSK means "Freiwillige Selbstkontrolle". It is the name of the organisation in charge of rating movies etc. in Germany. If you see something like "FSK: 12" the FSK considers it inappropriate for children younger than 12.

Keine Frage, dass Fluchen immer Kontext-bezogen gesehen werden muss, aber es spielen doch sicher auch Unterschiede im kulturellen Hintergrund mit. Meiner Erfahrung nach reagieren z.B. in Deutschland Leute relativ entspannt auf Sex in den Medien (vielleicht wegen der "sexuellen Revolution" in den 70ern?); in den USA dagegen scheint das aber ein sehr sensibles Thema zu sein. Das könnte auch die unterschiedliche Wahrnehmung des Wortes "fuck" erklären, das zumindest teilweise in diesen Themenkreis gehört.

@argus: Danke für die Erklärung zu FSK :-)

Ich denke aber, dass die "unterschiedliche Wahrnehmung" in diesem Fall hauptsächlich darauf beruht, dass es für die Deutschprachigen nicht die Muttersprache ist. Daher fehlt ganz einfach das assoziative Gefühl beim Hören und Sprechen dieses Wortes. Warum sonst auch vermeiden sie die Verwendung entsprechender Ausdrücke in ihrer Muttersprache?

Sicherlich sind sexuelle Themen im angelsächsichem Raum eher tabuisiert als in Mitteleuropa, dennoch gilt diese Art von Scheu eher Themen wie FKK-Strände, gemischte Sauna-Partien, Prostitution, sexistische Werbung usw.

Aber auch hier in Deutschlnad hört man diese Ausdrücke - egal ob deutsch oder englisch - eher selten von kultivierten und wohlerzogenen Menschen. Nur leider gibt es derer nach meinem Eindruck hierzulande weniger als in England.

Sissy, I'm confused: you're at college (university) in the States and among people who by and large are already 18 and over, but don't yet consider yourself an adult?

Was muss eigentlich passieren, damit ein Film in Deutschland auf dem Index landet, also gar nicht legal käuflich zu erwerben ist?

@imaxchen: "indiziert" (d.h. jugendgefährdend) heisst nicht das sie nicht frei verkäuflich wären. Es werden bloss Auflagen gemacht das die Materialien nicht von Minderjährigen wahrgenommen werden (Werbeverbot, kein Versandhandel usw).
Die klassischen Beispiele sind Porno-Videos die ja "indiziert" sind und deshalb z.B. nicht öffendlich beworben werden, und für die es einen "ab 18"-Bereich in der Videothek gibt.

Zu den Kriterien siehe die Webseite der Prüfstelle:
http://www.bundespruefstelle.de/bpjm/Jugendme...

Nachdem ich 18 geworden bin, hab ich sofort meine DVD-Sammlung um einige FSK18 Filme erweitert und hatte nur bei einem Probleme, den zu bekommen (Blade 1), was aber letztendlich auch geklappt hat. Allerdings suche ich schon seit langem From Dusk till Dawn in der ungekürzten Fassung und entweder bin ich zu blöd dazu oder den gibt's wirklich in D nicht zu kaufen. Ich habe bei Saturn nachgefragt, weil die im FSK18 Regal die Fortsetzungen stehen hatten, aber die haben gesagt, dass der Film nicht zu kriegen ist, da auf dem Index. Dass amazon etc. keine Filme ab 18 verkaufen, ist ja eigentlich klar.

I must admit I was taken aback when first I came across that manufactureer of fashion-wear FCUK (French Connection UK)

@JGMcI: I bet you weren't as taken aback as I was on seeing a very beautiful young woman in Cambridge wearing a T-shirt with three words on it:

fnodle
froeplay
fcuk

@imaxchen: Natürlich darf Saturn keine indizierten DVDs im Regal stehen haben, denn dort können ihn ja Jugendliche sehen.
Sie *dürften* ihn "unter dem Ladentisch" verkaufen, also so wie Du es versucht hast: der Kunde spricht den Verkäufer an, und wenn der überzeugt ist einen Erwachsenen vor sich zu haben verkauft er ihm den Film.
Sowas macht aber halt kein Laden, weil Ware auf die nicht hingewiesen werden darf sich nicht verkauft.
So das praktisch eine Indizierung zum wirtschftlichen aus führt weil kein Geschäft sich eine "über 18"-Infrastruktur leisten kann, mit der Ausnahme der Pornoindustrie mit den Sex-Shops und Videotheken.
Dies führt wiederum dazu das die deutschen Verleiher/Importeure die deutschen Film/Video/DVD-Versionen sehr "großzügig" schneiden um einer Indizierung zu entgehen.

Okay, und wieso finde ich bei Saturn im FSK18 Regal dann Kill Bill Vol. 1, Blade 1-3 (alle mit rotem Aufkleber "kein Verkauf unter 18" oder so ähnlich)? Bei online stores ist es natürlich was anderes, weil die an der Kasse nicht mal eben fragen können "Darf ich mal Ihren Ausweis sehen?" und daher gibt's da gar keine FSK18 Filme zu bestellen. Aber (ich bleib jetzt mal dabei) bei Saturn gibt's eine extra Abteilung (die zugegebenermaßen nicht besonders groß ist) in der halt nur vor Blut triefende oder sehr freizügige Filme stehen. Mir hatte jemand die FSK16 Version von Blade Trinity geschenkt (zum Glück mit dem Beleg) und als ich die gegen die 18er-Version ausgetauscht habe, hat sich der Verkäufer gewundert, dass die überhaupt als 16er-Version im Regal stand. Es gibt also offensichtlich Filme ab 18, die (mit Vorlage des Ausweises) frei erhältlich sind und andere, die man trotz des erforderlichen Mindestalters nicht bekommt. Wenn die DVD nicht mehr lieferbar gewesen wäre, dann hätte mir der Mensch das sicher gesagt, aber er hat gesagt "Steht auf dem Index".

Weil "FSK 18" (= "nicht für Jugendliche geeignet") und "indiziert" (= "jugendgefährdend") zwei unterschiedliche Dinge sind?

Und das war ja meine ursprüngliche Frage: Was macht einen Film jugendgefährdend?

Mal wieder ein bisschen zum Thema zurück:
Immer wieder faszinierend finde ich (hab ich in nem anderen Faden schon letztes Jahr geschrieben), wie der Film "Four Weddings and a Funeral" im Deutschen synchronisiert ist. Am Anfang, wenn Hugh Grant und seine Dame zu spät aufstehen, sagen beide in der OV am laufenden Band "fuck!" zu allem. In der deutschen Fassung ist das mit "Shit!" übersetzt. Das sagt unheimlich viel aus, findet Ihr nicht?

This is an interesting forum, and I have not read everything, but you all do have valid points.
I agree that swearing has become so common in the UK, it seems almost a sick and twisted approach of the german "Guter Ton" , no sentence without the F-word is a compelte sentence.
Maybe the 'stiff upper lip' has bitten its time, and Britain, led proud by the many, many Chavs out there, finally speaks out what's really on their mind...

..And it can't be alot, as the f-word has become so common, they even named a TV show "The F-Word", inspired by Restaurant Chef Gordon Ramsey who is famous for using this word and nothing but the word when dealing with his restaurant staff :)

http://www.channel4.com/life/microsites/F/fwo...
Here is how he explains it:
"I'm not trying to make excuses for my inadequacies - far from it - but, it's the nature of the beast unfortunately. When things go pear-shaped in the kitchen I do get annoyed, but when things are running normally I'm fine. I'm just being too honest, that's all, and that's what it's like in each and every restaurant I've ever worked in. I don't think it's ever going to be any different, but I don't go out of my way to use bad language."

@imaxchen: Wenn die Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Medien den Film für jugendgefährdend hält.
Wann hält sie ihn für jugendgefährdend? Das ist in dem Link beantwortet den ich Mon Feb 13 09:00:19 2006 gepostet habe.