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    Back east, out west

    Comment
    Regional or directional references that are almost universal in US usage include those two and others. After a childhood up north, I moved out west, but my relatives are mostly back east, except for a sister who is currently working down south. Deviations from these phrases, like out east, are rare, bordering on strange.

    I assume that up north and down south relate to a map held with north at the top. The upper peninsula and lower peninsula of Michigan are so named because of latitude, not altitude. Going out west comes from the frontier drive toward "out there", I suppose, and once out there people recalled the time when they lived back where they came from, a bit like the 19th century immigrants who referred things done back in the old country (where they came from, Germany, Italy, etc.). But even an immigrant to the west coast from Mexico or China, for example, might refer to New England as being back east, once on top of AE. Over is for over seas, literally, like over there in France.

    In BE, if I have it right, students go down to London from Cambridge, but a different twist might be involved here, as someone might also go up to London.

    In German it seems that upper and lower parts of Bavaria (and "Saxony"?) relate to altitude or maybe to being down stream. Are there other such fixed phrases for regions or directions that are at least regionally common and that an outsider might not be familiar with?

    Author Jurist (US) (804041) 27 Sep 11, 16:49
    Comment
    Took me a while to work out you meant Niedersachsen, as that doesn't register with me as "Saxony" :-)

    Maybe someone could explain the Mitteldeutschland issue, as I don't really understand all the implications myself?
    #1Author CM2DD (236324) 27 Sep 11, 17:00
    Comment
    I don't know about Cambridge and London, but Oberbayern is south of Niederbayern, and both areas have mountains, so I don't think it refers to altitude. However, with smaller geographic areas, such as towns, the "Ober" and "Nieder" or "Unter" often relate to altitude. Of course, it can also get a bit confusing, like in the case of Oberunterberg or Oberunterach. :-)

    On the other hand, Oberösterreich is actually west of Niederösterreich, and I'm not aware of any drastic differences in altitude, so I'm not sure what that terminology relates to.
    #2Author dude (253248) 27 Sep 11, 17:02
    Comment
    Not to forget that there is a "Pfalz" and an "Oberpfalz", but no "Niederpfalz" or "Unterpfalz", and that Pfalz and Oberpfalz are entirely unrelated ;-)
    #3Author B.L.Z. Bubb (601295) 27 Sep 11, 17:05
    Comment
    Re #2: thinking about it, I do realize that the "Wiener Becken," for instance, which is part of mostly Niederösterreich, is actually quite a bit lower in altitude than some of the areas of Oberösterreich that are closer to the Alps.
    #4Author dude (253248) 27 Sep 11, 17:11
    Comment
    @3: Nicht ganz richtig, siehe Wikipedia (Eintrag Oberpfalz):

    Historisch ist die Oberpfalz mit dem bayerischen Nordgau identisch. Der Name des Regierungsbezirkes Oberpfalz steht im direkten Zusammenhang mit der Pfalz bzw. dem davon abgeleiteten Namen der Kurpfalz.

    Nach dem Tod Ludwigs II. des Strengen teilte sich das Haus Wittelsbach 1329 (Hausvertrag von Pavia) in die ältere Linie Pfalz und die jüngere Bayern, wobei die Pfälzer Linie einen Teil der Gebiete in Nordbayern erhielt, die später als Obere Pfalz gen Bayern genannt wurden. Aus dieser Bezeichnung entstand Anfang des 19. Jahrhunderts der Name Oberpfalz im Zuge der Neuordnung des Königreiches Bayern.
    #5Authorrvaloe (588295) 27 Sep 11, 17:18
    Comment
    Please note that I wrote "are". They were related back then, of course ;-)
    #6Author B.L.Z. Bubb (601295) 27 Sep 11, 17:20
    Comment
    With regard to Oxford and Cambridge, one goes up to university (a place of higher learning?) and then down again in the holidays or at the end of one's study. This is however a rather old-fashioned usage.

    And on railway lines in England, there is an up direction and a down direction, with up almost always being defined as towards London.
    #7Author amw (532814) 27 Sep 11, 18:10
    Comment
    In BE, if I have it right, students go down to London from Cambridge, but a different twist might be involved here, as someone might also go up to London.

    Ich glaube Du beziehst Dich auf die selten werdenden Ausdrücke "to go up" (to university) und "to go down" (to leave university for good). Die haben aber, soweit ich weiß, nichts mit der Geographie der Orte zu tun .

    Selbst wenn im Fall von Großbritannien der brain drain wirklich viele Uni-Absolventen nach Süden/unten zieht, wenn sie die Uni verlassen haben, um in London zu arbeiten. ;-)

    PS: amw war schneller.
    #8Author Lady Grey (235863) 27 Sep 11, 18:21
    Comment
    Mir fällt dazu der/die Bostoner Subway mit den Richtungen "inbound" und "outbound" ein, die sich danach richten, ob bestimmte Stationen passiert werden oder nicht, so dass man z. B. aus der Stadt raus durchaus "inbound" fahren kann.
    #9Author corbie (745439) 27 Sep 11, 18:39
    Comment
    Im Deutschen sind "hoch" und "runter" für "Norden" und "Süden" dadurch noch weiter verkompliziert, dass sehr viele Flüsse von Süden nach Norden fließen. Man kann also von Wiesbaden den Rhein runter hoch nach Köln fahren.

    Dann fällt mir noch "tiefste Provinz" ein, weiß aber nicht, woher das kommt. Es würde mich wundern, wenn das speziell etwas mit Süden zu tun hat (obwohl "tiefstes Bayern" auch denkbar ist). Dass Täler provinzieller als hügelige Gebiete sind, wage ich auch zu bezweifeln. (Hier wäre aber vorstellbar, dass der Burgherr von seinem Hügel auf das umliegende Flachland runterguckt.) Am ehesten tendiere ich dazu, "tief" als "tief drin" (im Wald, Landesinneren, nicht weiter interessanter Pampa) zu interpretieren. Weiß jemand Genaueres?
    #10Author Beel (661006) 27 Sep 11, 20:18
    Comment
    tief in .....muss nicht uninteressant sein.

    Und tief drin im dunklen Forst
    erwacht die Gans im Adlerhorst.
    Sie schaut sich um und denkt betroffen:
    Mensch, war ich letzte Nacht besoffen.

    Davon abgesehen, gibt es in Deutschland landsmannschaftliche Unterschiede bei der Frage, wo oben und unten ist. Nördlich der Mainlinie ist Hamburg oben und München unten; südlich davon hört man oft das Gegenteil.
    #11Author Werner (236488) 27 Sep 11, 20:24
    Comment
    Na, dann habe ich Wiesbaden in meinem Beispiel ja ganz geschickt gewählt :)

    Und dann gibt es natürlich noch "drüben", für Leute aus dem Westen ist das der Osten (umgekehrt auch?). In Frankfurt ist "hibdebach" die Innenstadt und "dribdebach" Sachsenhausen (andere Mainseite). Wie nennen Kölner und Düsseldorfer nochmal die jeweils andere Stadt? "Schäl Sick"?

    Edit: Ah, falsch. Nicht Köln und Düsseldorf gegenseitig sondern einfach die gegenüberliegenden eigenen Stadtgebiete. Naja.
    #12Author Beel (661006) 27 Sep 11, 20:35
    Comment
    And on railway lines in England, there is an up direction and a down direction, with up almost always being defined as towards London

    up North? down South?
    #13Author Spinatwachtel (341764) 28 Sep 11, 08:25
    Comment
    Your OP is very interesting, Jurist. You mention holding a map with N at the top, and I agree that speaker orientation has a lot to do with it. I also think speaker heritage/origin plays a part too. To someone from Wisconsin or Illinois, "up north" (pronounced "up nort" :) ) refers to the woods, lakes, and rivers of Northern Wisconsin, while the phrase would be meaningless, or refer to a different area, to someone in say Texas.

    Wouldn't "back east" mean that you are originally from the East Coast? Because that's where you would be going "back" to? I'm not sure that "out east" sounds that strange to me, because I am from the Midwest and direction W or E of that would be "out." I'd like to hear from other North Americans to see if this is true for them too, or if my brain is just a bit cloudy today.

    Some geographical terms with "upper" and "lower" have to do with rivers and river flow-- Lower Egypt is above Upper Egypt, because the Nile flows from Upper to Lower. Does this theory hold true for other upper/lower parts in Germany and Austria? Niederösterreich?
    #14AuthorStrawberry (357492) 28 Sep 11, 08:42
    Comment
    What my husband finds quite funny is that in the UK, you have motorway signs saying things like "The NORTH" or "The South West". http://img.search.com/thumb/3/3d/A1mroad.400p...
    Or "The West Country", though that actually describes a specific area.
    Do you get such general signs in Germany too? I can't think of any round here.
    #15Author CM2DD (236324) 28 Sep 11, 08:54
    Comment
    So ähnlich. Autobahnschilder nach links oder nach rechts "alle Richtungen" ...
    #16Author B.L.Z. Bubb (601295) 28 Sep 11, 09:03
    Comment
    In Frankfurt ist "hibdebach" die Innenstadt und "dribdebach" Sachsenhausen (andere Mainseite).

    Dgl. für Wiesbaden und Mainz. Als Wiesbadener würde ich im übrigen nicht "auf dem Rhein hoch nach Köln" fahren, sondern "den Rhaa erunner bis nach Kölle"; wenn ich "eruff nach Kölle" will, nehme ich die Autobahn Frankfurt-Köln.

    Passend zu den Niederlanden gibt es im übrigen noch die Oberlande, das ist das Rheintal oberhalb des Binger Lochs (in den Wettervorhersagen immer "der Oberrhein"), erhalten im "Oberländer", einem früher weit verbreiteten Prahm auf dem Rhein. Das gleiche gilt für Ober- und Niederösterreich, denn Niederösterreich ist donauabwärts von Oberösterreich angeordnet.

    Nicht zu vergessen, dass "Hochdeutsch", "Niederdeutsch" und "Plattdeutsch" sich nicht auf Qualität oder soziales Niveau beziehen, sondern auf Höhen über dem Meeresspiegel.

    Eine Merkwürdigkeit findet sich im Taunus: Dort fährt man an einer Straße erst durch Oberfischbach, dann durch Mittelfischbach, man erwartet Unter- oder Niederfischbach, aber das bleibt aus. Des Rätsels Lösung: Unterfischbach ist seit dem Dreißigjährigen Krieg eine Wüstung.

    #17Author Restitutus (765254) 28 Sep 11, 09:38
    Comment
    Die Fließrichtung eines größeren Flusses ermöglicht eine eindeutige Oben-unten-Zuordnung auch dort, wo die Höhenunterschiede gering bis unauffällig sind. Beispiele wurden schon viele genannt. Im deutschen Sprachraum werden wohl die meisten geografischen Namen mit Ober- und Nieder- bzw. Unter- darauf beruhen.

    In Konkurrenz dazu steht das Prinzip Norden=oben, Süden=unten von der Landkarte. In Deutschland führen die Konzepte zu konträren Ergebnissen: Norddeutschland ist "oben" auf der Karte, aber "unten" im Gelände.

    Welches Konzept ein Sprecher bevorzugt, hängt m. E. auch vom Alter und von der Nähe zum traditionellen Dialekt ab: Früher (und demzufolge noch heute in traditionellen Redewendungen) dominierte das Gelände-Konzept. Heute, wo alle in der Schule Landkarten lesen lernen und im Fernsehen täglich die Wetterkarte sehen, setzt sich mehr das Landkarten-Konzept durch.
    #18Author erasmus (723849) 28 Sep 11, 09:55
    Comment
    I live in Lower Austria (Niederösterreich), and there's Upper Austria (Oberösterreich), too, but it's got nothing to do with heigths. Niederösterreich was named for being "unter der Enns" = "nieder der Enns" = below the Enns (a river). Upper Austria, consequently, is über / ober der Enns.
    #19Author Carullus (670120) 28 Sep 11, 10:02
    Comment
    And on railway lines in England, there is an up direction and a down direction, with up almost always being defined as towards London

    up North? down South?


    Not necessarily. Only in relation to somewhere south of London.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_directi...
    #20AuthorNomis8 (597361) 28 Sep 11, 10:10
    Comment
    I'd say I was going up to London even if that meant travelling south. That use is described in OD online as "towards or in the capital or a major city".

    When might you see this railway use of "up" and "down"? Sounds like it might be technical use from the Wikipedia description. If I've ever seen it on signs I've probably just put it down to the "towards a major city" meaning and not seen it as having anything to do with railways.
    #21Author CM2DD (236324) 28 Sep 11, 10:19
    Comment
    Growing up in Nova Scotia, Canada, people used to go "down to Maine" or "down to Florida", which latitudinally makes sense; however, strangely enough, we tended to go "up to Boston". In my family, we figured this was due to Boston's prestigious status...

    Along somewhat different but still geographical lines, it drives me crazy when non-Canadians (or Western Canadians!) refer to Ontario and Québec as Eastern Canada! As if the rest of us don't exist. But I guess it just depends on where you are looking from!
    #22Authorhfx (818330) 28 Sep 11, 10:41
    Comment
    @CM2DD: Indeed up and down on the railway are kind of technical terms, probably unlikely to be encountered by passengers, but a track diagram of a 4-track railway in a signal box might show lines named 'Up Slow', 'Up Fast', 'Down Fast' and 'Down Slow' and railway staff refer to lines in this way.
    #23Author amw (532814) 28 Sep 11, 12:05
    Comment
    @ #19:
    ... it's got nothing to do with heigths. Niederösterreich was named for being "unter der Enns" = "nieder der Enns" = below the Enns (a river). Upper Austria, consequently, is über / ober der Enns.

    Aber was bedeutet "nieder der Enns"? Sicher nicht "senkrecht unterhalb des Flussbetts"...
    Sondern: Unterhalb, d. h. flussabwärts von der Mündung der Enns in die Donau; und flussaufwärts entlang der Donau liegt Oberösterreich.
    So steckt doch indirekt die Geländehöhe dahinter.
    #24Author erasmus (723849) 28 Sep 11, 15:16
    Comment
    In SE England at least, railway up lines were to London, down lines from London;does anyone know how far that extends? I could imagine Glaswegians, for example, don't think London is up...:-)
    #25Authormikefm (760309) 28 Sep 11, 15:54
    Comment
    sorry,double...
    #26Authormikefm (760309) 28 Sep 11, 15:55
    Comment
    #22: we tended to go "up to Boston". In my family, we figured this was due to Boston's prestigious status...

    In the UK, that can apply to London too, though I associate this usage with people of a certain social class and indeed I assume it predates railways. As mikefm indicates in #25, I think it's unlikely that Glaswegians would go "up" to London, but landed gentry from Yorkshire might well do.
    #27AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 28 Sep 11, 16:15
    Comment
    I for one would go down to London (because it’s down south), not up to it (because it's the capital).

    Something perhaps worth noting is that in BE we don't have fixed prepositions for the east or west, unlike Jurist's AE "out west" and "back east".
    #28Author captain flint (782544) 28 Sep 11, 16:18
    Comment
    Do people in Wales and Scotland etc. ever say "up to Edinburgh" or "up to Cardiff" and so on for similar reasons of prestige or is this a purely English-English (and Canadian? :-)) thing?
    #29AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 28 Sep 11, 16:25
    Comment
    Along the lines of #15, some words or expressions can refer to either a direction or a place. In the US, one can go to regions thought of as the west or the south, say. When one goes out west, it might well mean to the region, or maybe simply to somewhere west of the starting point. But I don't think many would use go down south for a trip from North Dakota to Kansas. Residents of Colorado find it amusing when Californians think of them as back east.

    In NYC, downtown is both a direction and a part of the city. Elsewhere it usually means Stadtmitte, so one might go downtown in any direction.
    #30Author Jurist (US) (804041) 28 Sep 11, 19:15
    Comment
    I live in California, and I don't think I've ever heard of Colorado being referred to as "back east." Sure, you'd have to go east to get to Colorado from here, but "back east" is, to me at least, the East Coast, maybe going as far inland as Ohio or Missouri, or maybe even anything that's east of the Mississippi. And it seems to me, most Californians feel the same way.
    #31Author dude (253248) 28 Sep 11, 19:20
    Comment
    #31, I agree. I was trying to give an example of strange use. I should have said, if a Californian were to refer to them as living back east (as one apparently did once, provoking the reaction in Colorado I mentioned).
    #32Author Jurist (US) (804041) 28 Sep 11, 19:44
    Comment
    @mikefm/25:

    As the Wikipedia article linked to in 20 states, "On most of the network, up is the direction towards London. In most of Scotland, with the exception of the West and East Coast Main Lines, up is towards Edinburgh. The Valley Lines network around Cardiff has its own peculiar usage, relating to the original meaning of traveling up and down the valley. On the former Midland Railway up was towards Derby."

    (I believe there are some other local anomalies due to the fact that the line which originally provided the shortest route to London was closed at some point (e.g. Beeching Axe) and trains travelling 'towards' London now have to travel in what was originally defined as the down direction.)

    Anyway, in other words the up and down directions are defined with respect to London almost everywhere in England and Wales, and on the WCML and ECML within Scotland, but for other lines in Scotland the directions are defined with respect to Edinburgh. I imagine that isn't likely to make Glaswegians any happier :-)
    #33Author amw (532814) 29 Sep 11, 19:02
    Comment
    # 33 thanks!
    "I imagine that isn't likely to make Glaswegians any happier :-)"

    I can believe that's true!

    BTW is there any similar usage in Germany - to and from Berlin, e.g.?
    #34Authormikefm (760309) 30 Sep 11, 10:48
     
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