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    Customs and culture

    "Dialekt" in der TV-Serie "Skins"?

    Topic

    "Dialekt" in der TV-Serie "Skins"?

    Comment
    Hey guys,

    this question goes out mainly to the UK users here in LEO.
    I recently watched the British TV series "Skins" and noticed that they talk in a special dialect which is marked by a lot of swallowed letters and the pronunciation of "u" as "oo". Has anyone seen this show? Is it a regional thing? It doesn't sound like "Posh" to me.
    Sorry if this is a "noob" question, I'm pretty new at the whole UK stuff :)
    Also they use a lot of weird colloquial terms and expressions like "bruv" or "t*ts up", to name just very few. Do British teenagers really actually talk like that or is the show exagerating?

    If anyone has some helpful or interesting links about UK dialects (yes, not only British but also Scottish, Welsh, Irish are welcome :) ) or the British/UK mindset in general it would be very cool if you could post them since I'm trying to get a better understanding of that at the moment (or as we say in German: "durchsteigen" :D ). Up until now, I've mainly dealt with American English & mindset only...

    Also, is it possible that dialects (regional) play a bigger role than ethnolects (racial etc) in the UK? Because in America it appears to be the other way around ("Black English", "Redneck talk", etc is far more widespread in popular culture than for example the "Brooklyn accent"...))

    And last but not least: can someone recommend a UK TV show where the protagonists or recurring characters speak many different dialects? (again, not only British but also Scottish, Welsh, Irish are welcome ^_^ )

    Hope to hear from you guys :)
    Authoridiopathic (872264) 25 Jun 12, 09:51
    Comment
    Ohne die Serie zu kennen ... Tante Google sagt, sie spielt in Bristol. Also dürfte das der dortige Akzent sein, Bristolian. Lässt sich sicher auch googlen ("skins dialect bristol" oder ähnliche Suchbegriffe).

    Tante Edith sagt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Brist...
    #1Author Jalapeño (236154) 25 Jun 12, 09:58
    Comment
    not only British but also Scottish, Welsh, Irish

    You mean not only English, but also Scottish, Welsh, Irish...

    Britain = England + Wales + Scotland
    (and United Kingdom = Britain + Northern Ireland)
    #2Author amw (532814) 25 Jun 12, 12:07
    Comment
    @amw: Oops, SORRY. I'm always confusing all these different terms. Thanks for correcting!

    @Jalapeno: Ja, ich hätte versuchen können, das über Google rauszufinden. Eigentlich hoffe ich aber auf eine lebhafte Diskussion, Erfahrungsberichte und Informationsaustausch in diesem Thread ^^ wodurch man viel mehr lernt als über ne Google-Suche...

    Außerdem sind "Do British teenagers really talk like that?", "Is it possible that dialects play a bigger role than ethnolects in the UK?" und "Can someone recommend a UK TV show where the protagonists speak many different dialects?" Fragen, die sich meines Erfahrungswertes nach ebenfalls nicht so zufriedenstellend über Google beantworten lassen wie über einen Austausch mit echten Menschen ;)

    Aber danke für den Tipp mit Bristol, ich versuch mal Tonbeispiele dafür zu finden zum Vergleichen, ob es "Skins"-like klingt :)
    #3Authoridiopathic (872264) 25 Jun 12, 12:56
    Comment
    Note that in English (in the UK, at least), we refer to accents rather than dialects. "Dialect" sounds odd in much of #0.
    #4AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 25 Jun 12, 12:59
    Comment
    @4:

    In linguistics, the distinction between accent and dialect is generally that accent refers to pronunciation and dialect refers to all aspects of speech - pronunciation, vocabulary, grammar, etc.

    So the use of the word dialect in the original post is actually correct, though we do in fact generally talk about people speaking with an accent in the UK.
    #5AuthorSP (UK) (792698) 25 Jun 12, 14:03
    Comment
    #5: So the use of the word dialect in the original post is actually correct, though we do in fact generally talk about people speaking with an accent in the UK.

    Even so, I guess the OP is actually referring in the main to differences in pronunciation.
    #6AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 25 Jun 12, 14:10
    Comment
    English ≠ British: "Oops, SORRY. I'm always confusing all these different terms. Thanks for correcting!"

    Here's a handy way of remembering...

    When Germany became Germany in 1871, Prussia was rather at the forefront and if I remember rightly Prussia's capital became Germany's capital.

    Imagine if all the other countries around the world, already used to dealing with Prussia as an entity, simply kept the old name. In other words, the new country that now reached to the Alps in the south and the Low Countries in the west was seen as an expanded Prussia. The name Germany doesn't catch on abroad, we all simply call the new, post-1871 nation Prussia.

    And to this day, Bavarians, Hessians, Rhinelanders et al were having to explain that while they were German, they were not Prussian... That's what it's like, for Scots, Northern Irish, Welsh etc.

    The *island* was named Britannia by the Romans. The Angles, Saxons and Jutes later came from what is now Germany and settled on about half of the island. This part was named England after the Angles (from Angeln). The Celts kept the other half, and later it was divided into Scotland and Wales.

    It's all pretty messed up. Officially the country is called 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. But our cars either have GB or NI on them. And we have four football teams in international competitions.
    #7AuthorSteveMcK (872061) 02 Jul 12, 22:37
    Comment
    For a Weegee (Glaswegian) accent, try Rab C Nesbitt:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4yeqSgNxiE

    It's said that the English spoken in Inverness is the most 'pure', as in unchanged, over the years.

    And this is a good mix:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flvJNw7heDo&fe...
    #8AuthorSteveMcK (872061) 02 Jul 12, 23:05
    Comment
    Britain = England + Wales + Scotland
    (and United Kingdom = Britain + Northern Ireland)



    ....NO!!

    United Kingdom = England + Wales + Scotland + Northern Ireland
    Great Britain = UK + Ireland
    #9Author Sage N. Fer Get K.S.C. (382314) 04 Jul 12, 16:15
    Comment
    #9: Great Britain = UK + Ireland

    "Great Britain" or "Britain"?
    #10AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 04 Jul 12, 16:18
    Comment
    Great Britain = UK + Ireland

    Meinst Du hier etwa die Republik Irland? Ist nicht Dein Ernst, oder?
    #11Author Russisch Brot (340782) 04 Jul 12, 16:18
    Comment
    Kann es sein, dass du Great Britain und British Isles verwechselst?
    #12Author JanZ (805098) 04 Jul 12, 16:26
    Comment
    Ja, stimmt, British Isles natürlich.. :-)
    Ich dachte zu Great Britain gehören beide dazu, aber naja... macht ja Sinn. Nur die Grosse. :-)

    Also:
    Great Britain = England + Wales + Scotland
    United Kingdom = Great Britain + Northern Ireland
    British Isles = UK + Ireland

    :-)

    Aber noch der Vollständigkeit halber: Wie heisst denn die kleinere Insel? Einfach Irland? Oder gibt es da noch eine spezielle Bezeichnung?
    #13Author Sage N. Fer Get K.S.C. (382314) 04 Jul 12, 16:31
    Comment
    @9: NO!! to quote a certain gentleman who can't tell his UKs from his GBs. ;-)

    Where have got the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands located, sage?
    #14Author SD3 (451227) 04 Jul 12, 16:33
    Comment
    I was wondering that too, and I came to the conclusion that the Isle of Man is part of the British Isles (GB as I thought) but the Channel Islands are not. But after I'd found out I even had GB wrong... I thought I'd better not lean out too far :-)

    So, am I right?

    Sorry :-)
    #15Author Sage N. Fer Get K.S.C. (382314) 04 Jul 12, 16:46
    Comment
    Die 'kleinere Insel' heißt meines Wissens 'Irland/Eire'. Wenn du es genauer willst, musst du dann entweder 'Northern Ireland' oder 'The Republic of Ireland' sagen.

    Channel Islands: keine Ahnung ;) Ich weiß nur, dass sie nicht Teil des UK sind.
    #16Author Gibson (418762) 04 Jul 12, 16:54
    Comment
    It always shocks me, when people from other European countries, who have taken the trouble to learn English, don't know the difference between England/GB/NI. Okay, it's a bit more complicated than the difference between Germany and Austria, but not much. To decide that it's not important will give the same impression as when an Austrian is repeatedly referred to as German, by foreigners who ought to know better, but clearly aren't interested.

    Anyone who seeks to use their knowledge of English professionally, in Europe, needs to know what and where the UK is.

    Britannia Major.
    Mediaeval name for the larger of the two islands. Named after the Celtic tribe the Britons. Divided into three parts when the Germans arrived (Angles, Saxons, Jutes). The German part got named England. The two Celtic parts got named Wales and Scotland. When we stopped speaking Latin, we started calling the island Great Britain, or Britain.

    Britannia Minor.
    Mediaeval name for Brittany (Bretagne, in French). Celts also there.

    Eire.
    Celtic name for the smaller of the two main islands in the British Isles, comes from the name of a goddess. 'Ireland' = Land of Eire. Divided into two halves in the 20th century, when the South went independent.
    #17AuthorSteveMcK (872061) 04 Jul 12, 17:01
    Comment
    As for the Isle of Man and the Channel islands, (even) most Brits aren't exactly sure how those fit in, so I wouldn't worry much about them.
    #18AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 04 Jul 12, 17:05
    Comment
    needs to know what and where the UK is.

    Which then you don't, strictly speaking, explain. ;)
    #19Author Gibson (418762) 04 Jul 12, 17:06
    Comment
    Going back to my #10, I believe there is -- strictly speaking -- a difference between "Britain" and "Great Britain". I can't remember what it is, though.

    EDIT: Is it to do with the Act of Union?
    #20AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 04 Jul 12, 17:07
    Comment
    Channel Islands are Crown Dependencies of the UK. It's insanely complicated, can't pretend to understand it. They're not sovereign states, but they're also not in the UK or the EU... They have their own legal systems, e.g. only legalised homosexuality in the 1980s.

    Maybe the Queen knows.
    #21AuthorSteveMcK (872061) 04 Jul 12, 17:12
    Comment
    Oh, right. Not like the Brits who already stopped castrating people in the 60s...

    (But I better shut up with our women's suffrage) :-)
    #22Author Sage N. Fer Get K.S.C. (382314) 04 Jul 12, 17:18
    Comment
    Gibson, t'was deliberate. I think the previous definitions (the correct ones) cover it.

    But to be sure...

    Great Britain: name of an island. Comes from Britannia, which was the Romans' name.
    England: the part conquered by the Angles, Saxons, Jutes. Comes from Angle-Land.
    Wales and Scotland: the Celtic parts, the Angles et al didn't like the climate, so kept away.
    United Kingdom: Union of the Crowns, 1707. English queen died childless, so Scottish king became king of both countries.

    UK = GB + NI
    GB = England + Scotland + Wales

    I could go on, but Wikipedia does it better. The easiest way to remember it all is to think of Julius Caesar landing on a big island called Britannia, named after the inhabitants, who were the Britons. England/Scotland/Wales didn't yet exist.

    KinkyAfro, as per my post moments ago, Britain is just an abbreviation of Great Britain. Lesser Britain would be Brittany.
    #23AuthorSteveMcK (872061) 04 Jul 12, 17:30
    Comment
    Oh, right. Not like the Brits who already stopped castrating people in the 60s...
    (But I better shut up with our women's suffrage) :-)


    Would you explain yourself, please? Particularly, 'Brits' or 'some Brits'?

    I guess you're talking about Alan Turing and female hormone 'treatment'?

    Many strange things have happened in many countries. Name your own, and we'll have a little look...

    Just in case it's relevant, homosexuality legalised in the USA: 2003
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texa...
    #24AuthorSteveMcK (872061) 04 Jul 12, 17:35
    Comment
    I wasn't asking for any further information (there wasn't anything new for me in #17), I just thought it was funny that you explained everything but the thing you said people really should know. Deliberate or not, I found it slightly amusing and took the liberty to make a comment. That was all, really.
    #25Author Gibson (418762) 04 Jul 12, 17:43
    Comment
    Just re-read my post, and I see your point. But as above, simply didn't want to repeat what had already been covered.
    #26AuthorSteveMcK (872061) 04 Jul 12, 17:56
    Comment
    Some particular Brits of course, particularly the government.

    My country is the one that facilitated slave trade into the 70s, and the women could not vote against it. Welcome to the forum.
    #27Author Sage N. Fer Get K.S.C. (382314) 04 Jul 12, 19:45
    Comment
    OT:

    Like SteveMcK, #22 made me think of Alan Turing (and he was mentioned on TV just the other day) but I've never heard of castration being practised in the UK as recently as the 1960s - or were you referring to the 60s of a different century, Sage?
    #28AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 04 Jul 12, 19:55
    Comment
    Not actual castration of course, but chemical quasi-castration, maybe temporary. Honestly I'm not so sure, but I think I heard "offenders" had the choice to go to prison OR take that pill until the 1967 act. Is that right?
    I thought there was a story about that writer... not Oscar Wilde, somewhen in the 50s. But I can't think of the name right now and I can't seem to find anything on the internet...
    #29Author Sage N. Fer Get K.S.C. (382314) 04 Jul 12, 20:10
    Comment
    Turing's treatment was/is described as chemical castration. There's talk of a comeback...
    #30AuthorSteveMcK (872061) 04 Jul 12, 20:11
    Comment
    Probably it was Turing, no idea why I thought it was a writer.... thanks guys :-)

    And what do you mean, comeback?
    Maybe they'll start lobotomizing again too...?
    #31Author Sage N. Fer Get K.S.C. (382314) 04 Jul 12, 20:13
    Comment
    A treatment programme involving 100 prisoners at Whatton prison, a specialist prison for sex offenders in Nottinghamshire, has seen them undergo chemical "castration". The Guardian, 12th March 2012
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/reality-ch...
    #32AuthorSteveMcK (872061) 04 Jul 12, 21:50
    Comment
    Just in case it's relevant, homosexuality legalised in the USA: 2003

    Texas = USA? 14 states = USA? According to Wikipedia, 36 states had already repealed or had struck down sodomy laws before the Supreme Court's decision in 2003. The first state to do so was Illinois in 1962.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_t...

    "Following the Wolfenden report, sexual acts between two adult males, with no other people present, were made legal in England and Wales in 1967, in Scotland in 1980, Northern Ireland in 1982, Guernsey in 1983, Jersey in 1990 and the Isle of Man in 1992."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_law#Unite...
    #33Author Amy-MiMi (236989) 04 Jul 12, 22:12
    Comment
    Take your point, and I checked both those sites before posting, but:
    Homosexuality in the USA: 'Legal nationwide since 2003'
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_la...

    It would seem that homosexuality wasn't fully legalised in the USA until the date given.

    The convoy moves at the speed of its slowest ship.

    This kind of thing is always going to be comparing apples with pears. Some countries might have repealed early, but maintained informal oppression. Others that repealed late may have 'decriminalised' to a lesser or greater extent. Important is numbers of prosecution per head of population. And more intangible factors, like how gay people felt. Difficult to operationalise.
    #34AuthorSteveMcK (872061) 04 Jul 12, 22:35
    Comment
    As we're already well OT anyway ...

    Re #34: Difficult to operationalise

    Operationalise? Is that a word we should know? What do you mean by "operationalise"?
    #35AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 05 Jul 12, 11:06
    Comment
    Operationalise: define something in a way that can then be measured.

    E.g. if we want to decide if people in the former DDR are happier post-Wende, we need to have a measurable definition of happiness. Anything from whether people smile at each other to alcohol abuse, suicide.

    Or if we want to decide which species in nature are endangered, we need to have a quantifiable definition of endangered.

    German Wikipedia has: Operationalisierung
    #36AuthorSteveMcK (872061) 05 Jul 12, 11:53
    Comment
    And what does English Wikipedia have? I'm suspicious ...
    #37AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 05 Jul 12, 11:55
    Comment
    How do you mean, suspicious?
    #38AuthorSteveMcK (872061) 05 Jul 12, 13:58
    Comment
    English Wikipedia has Operationalization, Kinky :-)
    #39Author Sage N. Fer Get K.S.C. (382314) 05 Jul 12, 18:38
    Comment
    It sounds like you mean 'quantify' or 'measure.'

    'Operationalize' ought to mean 'make operational,' that is, make something work, make it functional. Lots of things can be operational without being quantifiable.
    #40Author hm -- us (236141) 05 Jul 12, 18:43
    Comment
    'Operationalize' ought to mean 'make operational,' that is, make something work, make it functional. Lots of things can be operational without being quantifiable.

    Oops, better tell Wikipedia, and the English-speaking scientific community!

    You say 'ought to mean'. In other words, you think the meaning of the word should be changed?

    Your definition of operationalise was also offered by my Apple Mac dictionary (checked before posting). Can anyone give a date of first use in each meaning? I don't have any other dictionaries with me. I suspect HM's definition is a neologism, probably from the US (that habit of turning other parts of speech into verbs). But I don't know if that's true in this case. Anyone got a big Oxford dictionary handy, or similar? Wikipedia is suggesting Bridgman (American physicist) for the development of operationalisation in the sense of empirical data-gathering; his work was in the earlier part of the twentieth century.

    This might be a good example of how language change is sometimes/often language decay.
    #41AuthorSteveMcK (872061) 06 Jul 12, 02:28
    Comment
    #39: English Wikipedia has Operationalization, Kinky :-)

    I trust you haven't just been editing Wikipedia or adding anything to it, Sage? ;-)

    (And no -- I must say I haven't bothered to check out Wikipedia or indeed anything else on this. Time is a bit short right now.)
    #42AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 06 Jul 12, 10:57
     
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