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    Customs and culture

    Katmandu (Engl.) —> Kathmandu (Engl.)?

    21­ Replies
    Topic

    Katmandu (Engl.) —> Kathmandu (Engl.)?

    Comment
    In another thread (related discussion: drag ) people were using the spelling Kathmandu in English. I corrected them to 'Katmandu,' assuming it was an error deriving from the spelling used in German, where H is silent. But lo and behold, the spelling with TH is the only spelling currently offered in Wikipedia, and it also shows up in at least one recent dictionary (Oxf. Amer.).

    I checked Webster's 3rd unabridged to be sure I wasn't dreaming, but it definitely lists Katmandu and nothing else. That's certainly the only spelling I've ever known (since I did a report on Nepal in the 4th grade (-: ).

    I wondered if it was perhaps a BE/AE difference, but surprisingly, the New York Times also seems to be using the Kathmandu spelling.

    So apparently this is like Peking —> Beijing and Bombay —> Mumbai? But if so, I was just curious as to why. The Wiki article shows the pronunciation in Nepali as a T with a little superscript H, which I took to be that sort of aspirated consonant sound of similar languages such as (IIRC) some in India. We don't make that aspiration in English, so to us it just sounds like a T, right? So why, logically, should we spell it with an H in English?

    Perhaps that's a largely rhetorical question; but if anyone has an answer, it might be interesting to anyone else who hadn't realized there had been (apparently) a change.
    Author hm -- us (236141) 12 May 15, 16:58
    Comment
    I suppose that when the name of the place was first transcribed, someone who knew something about Indian languages was being over-precise, or maybe even wanted to encourage an Indian pronunciation. I've certainly never known another spelling.

    It reminds me a bit of Bosphorus, where there is no etymological justification for the 'h'. It may just be due to some kind of popular analogy with phosphorus (like the s in island or aisle by analogy with isle).
    #1Author escoville (237761) 12 May 15, 17:32
    Comment
    I suppose that when the name of the place was first transcribed, someone who knew something about Indian languages was being over-precise, or maybe even wanted to encourage an Indian pronunciation. I've certainly never known another spelling.

    It reminds me a bit of Bosphorus, where there is no etymological justification for the 'h'. It may just be due to some kind of popular analogy with phosphorus (like the s in island or aisle by analogy with isle).
    #2Author escoville (237761) 12 May 15, 17:32
    Comment
    I suppose that when the name of the place was first transcribed, someone who knew something about Indian languages was being over-precise, or maybe even wanted to encourage an Indian pronunciation. I've certainly never known another spelling.

    It reminds me a bit of Bosphorus, where there is no etymological justification for the 'h'. It may just be due to some kind of popular analogy with phosphorus (like the s in island or aisle by analogy with isle).
    #3Author escoville (237761) 12 May 15, 17:32
    Comment
    I suppose that when the name of the place was first transcribed, someone who knew something about Indian languages was being over-precise, or maybe even wanted to encourage an Indian pronunciation. I've certainly never known another spelling.

    It reminds me a bit of Bosphorus, where there is no etymological justification for the 'h'. It may just be due to some kind of popular analogy with phosphorus (like the s in island or aisle by analogy with isle).
    #4Author escoville (237761) 12 May 15, 17:32
    Comment
    Ich kann zwar deine Frage nicht beantworten, hm, aber ich habe "Kathmandu" soeben in dem Buch (Autorin aus den USA, Buch aus dem Jahr 2014), das ich derzeit übersetze, in dieser Schreibweise gelesen.

    Ich war eher verblüfft, dass man es im Deutschen auch mit "h" schreibt, wie der Duden, Wiki und andere Nachschlagewerke angeben. Ich hatte es in meiner Übersetzung "Katmandu" geschrieben und habe es nun, nach meinen Recherchen, nachträglich wieder geändert ...
    #5Author Fragezeichen (240970) 12 May 15, 19:13
    Comment
    Auch ich habe keine Antwort auf die eigentliche Frage, hm -- us, möchte aber ergänzen, dass die Nepalis selbst nach meiner Erinnerung in englischen Texten "Kathmandu" schreiben. Ich bin mir recht sicher, dass die Schilder am Flughafen die Transkription "Kathmandu" benutzt haben. Englischsprachige Zeitungen aus Nepal scheinen auch Kathmandu zu nutzen, z.B.

    http://www.ekantipur.com/the-kathmandu-post/
    https://nepalitimes.atavist.com/as-remote-as-...
    #6Author harambee (91833) 12 May 15, 20:14
    Comment
    http://www.nepalnews.com schreibt auch "Kathmandu".
    #7Author MiMo (236780) 12 May 15, 22:40
    Comment
    I never really thought about it before but, like escoville, I've always spelt Kathmandu with an "h" - so it's not a recent change in BE.

    The Economist Style Guide gives Kathmandu
    http://www.economist.com/style-guide/spellings
    #8Author Marianne (BE) (237471) 12 May 15, 23:06
    Comment
    Interesting, thanks. So maybe it was originally an AE/BE difference, but the BE version now predominates in AE (or in some publications) as well?

    I just checked Random House as well and it too lists Katmandu first, but it gives Kathmandu as an alternate.
    #9Author hm -- us (236141) 13 May 15, 00:08
    Comment
    I've always spelt it Katmandu, too - and thought the "h" was the German spelling.

    If Kathmandu is "typically BE," why did Cat Stevens entitle his song from decades ago "Katmandu"? Saw him in concert in 1975, and his song is from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8420UW2_veM

    edit: And here's an article from the NY Times on the earthquake/aftershocks in Katmandu Nepal http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/27/world/asia/...

    Another one from the Wall Street Journal http://www.wsj.com/articles/strong-earthquake...

    http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/hhtcL_...
    Peace Corps Volunteer Barbara J. Wylie in Katmandu, Nepal

    The Britannica offers three spellings:
    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/313...
    Kathmandu, also spelled Katmandu, or Kantipur, capital of Nepal. It lies in a hilly region near the confluence of the Baghmati and Vishnumati rivers, at an elevation of 4,344 feet (1,324 metres) above sea level.
    #10Author Carly-AE (237428) 13 May 15, 00:34
    Comment
    >>or Kantipur

    Good grief. The plot thickens. (-:
    #11Author hm -- us (236141) 13 May 15, 02:36
    Comment
    ...and his song is from 1970...had originally written 1970, but it got lost in editing :-)

    UNESCO opts for "h" http://www.unesco.org/new/en/kathmandu/

    Here's a link to a book entitled "Road to Katmandu" https://books.google.de/books?id=10uzyTi0-b8C...
    #12Author Carly-AE (237428) 13 May 15, 09:29
    Comment
    There was a movie from 1988 that I remember: "Night Train to Kathmandu"--so it has been that way in the US for at least that long, and that's been my reference for the name of the city ever since. Wikipedia has a link to the home video cover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night_Train_...
    #13AuthorStrawberry (357492) 13 May 15, 09:36
    Comment
    Strawberry, Well, I can now "confess" that Cat Steven's song is my personal reference for Katmandu :-)
    #14Author Carly-AE (237428) 13 May 15, 09:43
    Comment
    Auf dem Stadtplan schreiben sie Kathmandu.
    #15Author manni3 (305129) 13 May 15, 10:15
    Comment
    Gurgled "Katmandu embassy" and amongst others, got these interesting hits:

    Embassy of India Kathmandu Nepal: Indian Embassy
    www.indianembassy.org.np/
    Indian Embassy opened in Kathmandu in December, 1947. Shri Surjit Singh Majithia was the first Ambassador of India to Nepal from 1947 to 1949. Till date ...

    Visa - Indian Embassy - Embassy of India Kathmandu Nepal
    www.indianembassy.org.np/index1.php?...0...
    From 17.09.2009, Embassy of India, Katmandu has authorized Nepal SBI Bank to operate Indian Visa Service Centre' (IVSC) at the following address:.

    Spanish, French and Italian sites most often "drop" the h, as do Finnish, Swedish and Danish? sites.
    #16Author Carly-AE (237428) 13 May 15, 10:22
    Comment
    When a terrible earthquake hit Nepal on April 25, our correspondents quickly began to report from the battered capital, Katmandu. By the beginning of this week, we were still reporting on the quake’s aftermath, but under a slightly different dateline: Kathmandu.

    ... For Nepal’s capital, the “Katmandu” spelling has long been widely used in English-language publications, and may still be more familiar to some American readers. But “Kathmandu,” with an “h” in the middle, has become more widespread in recent years, reflecting the preferred local usage.

    Until recently, Webster’s New World and The A.P. both used “Katmandu,” and The Times specified that spelling in our style manual. But in its Fifth Edition, published last year, Webster’s New World switched, listing “Kathmandu” as the primary spelling and “Katmandu” as a variant. Then, as coverage of the earthquake dominated headlines last week, the stylebook editors at The A.P. — who also use Webster’s New World College as their primary dictionary — announced that they were changing their style to “Kathmandu.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/times-insider/2015/05/...

    Dieser Kollege konnte aber nicht umhin, die NYTimes darauf hinzuweisen, dass "the preferred local usage" in Devnagri geschrieben wird:
    https://www.saddahaq.com/human-interest/kathm...
    #17Author Cuauhtlehuanitzin (1009442) 13 May 15, 10:36
    Comment
    Spanish, French and Italian sites most often "drop" the h, as do Finnish, Swedish and Danish? sites.

    Für Spanisch, Französisch und Schwedisch scheint das zu stimmen, aber für Italienisch wohl nicht, wenn man in die drei auflagenstärksten italienischen zeitungen schaut:

    La Repubblica: Kathmandu
    http://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2015/05/12/ne...

    Corriere: Kathmandu
    http://www.corriere.it/esteri/15_maggio_12/ne...

    La Stampa: Kathmandu
    http://www.lastampa.it/2015/05/12/esteri/un-a...
    #18Author harambee (91833) 13 May 15, 11:19
    Comment
    #Carly & Strawberry:
    Bob Seger wollte Anfang der 1970er noch unbedingt nach Katmandu.
    #19Author Analphabet (1034545) 13 May 15, 13:37
    Comment
    Ja, Analphabet, ich weiß :-)
    #20Author Carly-AE (237428) 13 May 15, 13:41
    Comment
    Ich könnte mir vorstellen, dass die Verantwortlichen für die Transkription Inder sind, deren Muttersprache Englisch ist und die, anders als Amerikaner und Briten, einen Unterschied in der Aussprache machen.
    #21Author wor (335727) 13 May 15, 14:31
     
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