http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jlawler/aue/go...

Ich kannte bisher beide Versionen, habe aber nie darüber nachgedacht, dass das ein AmE/BE -Ding sein könnte. Der Link ist ganz interessant.

Yep.

Main Entry: 1get
Pronunciation: 'get, ÷'git
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): got /'gät/; got or got·ten /'gä-t&n/; get·ting
Etymology: Middle English, from Old Norse geta to get, beget; akin to Old English bigietan to beget, Latin prehendere to seize, grasp, Greek chandanein to hold, contain

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

Yep.

US: get-got-gotten
UK: get-got-got

but when you compare with forgotten:

US: forget-forgot-forgotten
UK: forget-forgot-forgotten

it suddenly seems much more logical!

@ Leo: ja, leider. Suzanne Vega benutzt 'gotten' in manchen ihrer Lieder (und sie ist ja US-Amerikanerin), und ich habe als damals 16-jährige ewig gebraucht, den Sinn zu kapieren!

"Gotten" is actually the older form, and AE has retained it, whereas in BE it mutated to "got".

Thank you Mary (nz/A)!
We Americans get really tired of hearing how we "butchered" the English language. Languages are constantly changing, even in places where the language originated. I'm glad it wasn't the other way around (if it was changed in AmE) because it would have been considered another word we fouled up.
Thank you again, Mary.

@Mary/Miami: indeed! A happy-to-admit Brit!

@gretchen
danke für den link, aber jetzt verstehe ich nur noch Bahnhof:
"Gotten is probably the most distinctive of all the AmE/BrE grammatical
differences, but British people who try to use it often get it wrong.
It is not simply an alternative for have got. Gotten is used in such
contexts as
They've gotten a new boat. (= obtain)
They've gotten interested. (= become)
He's gotten off the chair. (= moved)
But it is not used in the sense of possession (= have). AmE does not
allow
*I've gotten the answer.
or *I've gotten plenty.
but uses I've got as in informal BrE. The availability of gotten
does however mean that AmE can make such distinctions as the following:
They've got to leave (they must leave) vs
They've gotten to leave (they've managed to leave)."

Wieso ist They've gotten a new boat nicht possesiv, aber *I've gotten the answer possesiv.
Mann mir da jemand den Unterschied erklären, ich hätte es eher umgekehrt gesehen.

Gibt es wirklich den Gebrauch von beidem in AE? Und hat das was mit dem Possesiv oder nicht zu tun?

Gotten isn't just AE though...
In England we'd definitely call a burglar's booty his "ill-gotten gains".
Can anyone think of any other examples or is this just a one off exception?

@tim: I would say that it is again the older form that has survived when the past participle is used as an adjective.

@tim,Mary: just thought of "beget - begotten"

@Leo: "They've gotten a new boat." ist in dem Sinne nicht possessiv (4s!), daß der Satz bedeutet, daß sie ein neues Boot bekommen (sich zugelegt) haben, auch wenn das im Ergebnis natürlich heißt, daß sie das Boot auch besitzen.

"I've got[ten] the answer" ist dagegen possessiv ("ich habe die Antwort" und nicht "ich habe mir die Antwort gekauft" o.ä.), d.h. es wird nur der "Besitz" angezeigt und nicht der Weg dorthin.

Klingt komisch, ist aber so! :-))

@ Leo:
Ich kann hier keine Garantie für Richtigkeit übernehmen, aber nach meinem Verständnis ist das so:
They've gotten the boat = Sie haben das Boot geholt / in ihren Besitz gebracht
I've got the answer = Ich habe / weiß die Antwort
I've gotten the answer = Ich hab die Antwort verstanden / bekommen

"gotten" ist also hier eher Ausdruck des sich Aneignens / Holens.

@Dragon, Leo, Babs:
I think the point here is that there is a principal difference between the verbs "to get" and "have got".
The "got" in "have got", which means the same as "to have", has nothing to do with the verb "to get"; therefore it should also not be viewed as being the past participle of "get".
"Have got" is a phrasal verb meaning "to have"- forget the verb "get" here!
I have got a new car = I have a new car.
Jim has got lots of money = Jim has lots of money.
Evidently, the verb "have got" has exactly the same form in AE. Because it has nothing to do with the verb "to get", there is also no "have gotten" here. (My hypothesis, this last bit.)

Older words like "to beget", meaning to sire or produce (used a lot in the Bible, for instance) still have the old forms: beget / begot (or begat) / begotten. But clearly this word hasn't been in common use for some time.

@tim: Also, as regards "ill-gotten gain", we also use the older p.p. endings for other verb past participles when used as attributive adjectives.
e.g. drink / drank / drunk - but "a drunken sailor" (but "the sailor is drunk")
A lot of German speakers get this confused, as the German verb pattern: er trinkt / er trank / er hat getrunken is extremely similar (no coincidence, of course), however English no longer has the -en on the past participle (except for the adjective).
So students often come out with: "I was totally drunken last night" (should be "drunk") or "he has drunken too much" (correct: "drunk").
It would be interesting to know if any AE speakers would use the form "he has drunken".

<It would be interesting to know if any AE speakers would use the form "he has drunken".>

No, I would say, "He has been over-served."

Sorry, Mary, I couldn't resist. ;-)

Mary:

Yes, I'd say, "He's drunken a lot of beer."

@Kim: You would? But then you capitalize 'You' too, right? With all due respect, you've lived overseas for quite some time, haven't you?

I would definitely not use 'drunken' except as an adjective preceding a noun, and even then not in all contexts.

The frat boys drank too much.
They got drunk on cheap margaritas and went for a joy ride.
Their blood alcohol level was over .08, so they were legally drunk.
The drunken frat boys were stopped for speeding and thrown in jail.
They spent the next six months bicycling to class and doing community service for 'Mothers Against Drunk Drivers.'


There are other archaic (in AE) participles we use only as adjectives, e.g., 'burnt sienna.' Can't think of any more at the moment but I have a vague recollection of a previous thread on this very topic.