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    Language lab

    "Have there not been" vs. "Have not there been"

    Topic

    "Have there not been" vs. "Have not there been"

    Comment
    Does one say:
    1. Have not there been enough measure to support them? (as I wrote it in an essay)
    or
    2. Have there not been enough measure to support them? (my Tutor considered the correct sentence order)
    Authorhobbes42 (490823) 08 Jun 12, 16:59
    Comment
    Your tutor is right.

    Have there not been enough measures to support them?
    #1Author captain flint (782544) 08 Jun 12, 17:02
    Comment
    Sorry, your teacher is right.

    Correct:

    Haven't there been ...?
    Have there not been ...?

    Incorrect:

    Have not there been ...?
    #2Author CM2DD (236324) 08 Jun 12, 17:02
    Comment
    I also agree with your tutor. It's just with the contraction that the order gets switched around.
    (as CM2DD already pointed out)
    #3Author wupper (354075) 08 Jun 12, 17:04
    Comment
    Thank you :)
    #4Authorhobbes42 (490823) 08 Jun 12, 17:06
    Comment
    I wouldn't consider it incorrect per se; I'd say it's more lyrical and antiquated English. People actually used to talk/write that way a couple of hundred years ago. It sounds a bit pompous these days.

    Edit:

    For example:
    http://books.google.com/books?id=_fGP4RgBUQYC...
    Have not there been famines and pestilence and earthquakes in divers places? And have not many been offended, and betrayed one another and hated one another? And have not many false prophets arisen?
    #5Author dude (253248) 08 Jun 12, 17:15
    Comment
    Unless he's translating the Bible, it's probably not correct in his homework.
    #6Author CM2DD (236324) 08 Jun 12, 17:28
    Comment
    Okay, how about something more recent and mundane? This is from the Railway Times, 1839 (published at the Railway Times Office, 122 Fleet Street, Opposite St. Bride's Church): :-)

    http://books.google.com/books?id=0RhCAQAAIAAJ...
    Have not there been false estimates palmed upon the public in consequence of the ignorance of the probable cost of those great works?

    Or how about some Locke (1862)?
    http://books.google.com/books?id=u6M8AAAAYAAJ...
    "Have not there been whole nations," says Locke, "and those of the most civilised people, amongst whom the exposing their children and leaving them in the fields to perish by want or wild beasts, has been the practice, as little condemned or scrupled as the begetting of them ...
    #7Author dude (253248) 08 Jun 12, 17:40
    Comment
    Got anything from after the 1800s, dude? ;-)
    #8AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 08 Jun 12, 18:10
    Comment
    Did you read my comment in #5, Kinky?
    #9Author dude (253248) 08 Jun 12, 18:11
    Comment
    Ah, I must have switched off after reading "divers places" :-)
    #10AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 08 Jun 12, 18:15
    Comment
    As your examples show, it's probably not correct in his homework. Unless of course it involves time travel.
    #11Author CM2DD (236324) 08 Jun 12, 18:16
    Comment
    dude, don't encourage the guy. He wants a stick to beat his tutor with.
    #12Author escoville (237761) 08 Jun 12, 18:28
    Comment
    Are we tailoring this thread specifically to the OP's purpose or should we consider other LEO users, too? I just didn't think it was fair to say that "Have not there been..." is categorically wrong. And yes, CD2MM, I did qualify my statement accordingly; I'm sure hobbes42 will understand that the phrasing does not make his or her specific attempt any better or more justified unless s/he plans on writing and talking like someone from the distant past.
    #13Author dude (253248) 08 Jun 12, 19:04
    Comment
    If the question is modern usage, I disagree with dude.
    #14Author Jurist (US) (804041) 08 Jun 12, 19:12
    Comment
    Please, not you too, Jurist. Read #5 first.
    #15Author dude (253248) 08 Jun 12, 19:15
    Comment
    are we being argumentative today, dude?
    #16Author penguin (236245) 08 Jun 12, 19:18
    Comment
    The link in #5 just takes me to a text marked "A Short Declaration of the Mystery of Iniquity (1611/1612)" ... [My bold.]

    #16: are we being argumentative today, dude?

    Perish the thought! ;-)
    #17AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 08 Jun 12, 19:20
    Comment
    No, penguin, I'm not being argumentative. I just think sometimes people comment without having read the entire thread. I do include myself among them, so I'm not putting any blame anywhere. I'm just saying ...
    #18Author dude (253248) 08 Jun 12, 19:35
    Comment
    OK with me to note lyrical or antiquated as long as other use is not encouraged.
    #19Author Jurist (US) (804041) 08 Jun 12, 19:37
    Comment
    Have not we occasionally encouraged divers forms of expression on a Friday, as little condemned or scrupled as certain occasional argumentative utterances?
    #20Author hm -- us (236141) 08 Jun 12, 20:27
    Comment
    'tis true indeed. And thus another week comes to a close. So be merry and make good cheer.
    #21Author dude (253248) 08 Jun 12, 20:35
     
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