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  • Topic

    as he said / like he said

    Comment
    Hi everybody!
    Now I really need your help on that one, it's seriously driving me nuts. I just got home from watching William Golding's 'The Lord of the Flies' at our municipal auditorium and the actors just kept on saying 'like you/she/he said'. Well, I thought that was just colloquial and it would have to be 'as you/she/he said' in any written text. Well, after the show I asked my American teacher about that and she told me she thought 'like he said' was perfectly fine.
    Now I'm really worried everything I've ever learned about the distinction between 'as' and 'like' could be wrong, since it's pretty much all based on experience rather than grammar rules.
    So could you please

    1. give your opinion on whether one would use 'like you said', cuz I can still barely believe it.

    2. give me a short summary of when to use as and when to use like. If you have any links, that'd also do it for me.
    As far as I know, like can only be used when you're qualifying nouns, e.g. 'the cat looks like a dog', whereas as would be used to qualify a characteristic or an action of the cat, e.g. 'the cat ran as fast as she could'.
    Help! I need somebody!
    AuthorDominik (GER)30 Jan 06, 22:54
    Comment
    Hmm, I've had to think about this one myself. I tend to agree with you that like is rather colloquial and I would write as. That could be a GB AE difference. I don't know...

    Btw I just wanted to let you know how much your English impressed me. Don't want to sound patronising, but credit where credit is due.
    #1AuthorEmma (BE) 30 Jan 06, 23:14
    Comment
    Thank you, Emma! It means a lot to me to hear a native speaker compliment me on my use of English, since I'm trying really hard to be as good as possible at it... it really is an awesome language.
    #2AuthorDominik (GER)30 Jan 06, 23:23
    Comment
    It is colloquial, used in speech, but the actors were speaking, weren't they? And Golding was writing fiction, not an academic essay, so his dialogue and description were intended to reflect the spoken language. In fact, that's part of what makes his book good -- you wouldn't want to read it if the people didn't sound natural.

    Yes, you need to know how to use 'as' correctly in formal writing. The standard rule is that 'as' is a conjunction, so it's used with a full clause containing a subject and a verb ('as I said,' 'as we can see,' 'as this analysis demonstrates'). In contrast, 'like' is a preposition, so it's used with a noun, pronoun, or phrase ('like them,' 'like the other students,' 'like a bird on the wing').

    Your teacher should know the difference, and should correct your written work so that you can learn it too. However, depending on her background, it could actually be easier for you than for her. Many native speakers don't know this rule, so you will see mistakes even occasionally in print (again, in writing other than dialogue, which for purposes of diction counts as speech).

    But in the spoken language, or writing intended to reflect it, there's nothing all that wrong with 'like' as a conjunction. I'm careful about usage, but I say it often myself when speaking to family or friends. I sometimes even find myself editing it out of my posts here just to set a better example for learners, but that often feels like going too far in the other direction, because 'as' can sound too formal in casual conversation.

    I wouldn't ever use 'cuz' in writing, though. But apart from that, I agree with Emma, your English is very good, and you were right to notice and ask the question. (-:
    #3Authorhm -- us30 Jan 06, 23:46
    Comment
    Fowler's Modern English Usage (3rd ed.) has a whole page on "like" as a conjunction. It (i.e. Burchfield) concludes:
    "It would appear that in many kinds of written and spoken English "like" as a conjunction is struggling towards acceptable standard or neutral ground. It is not there yet"

    My own quick, imperfect, and biassed summary:
    It is used more
    1. in comparisons
    2. jocularly, in set phrases ("like I said")
    3. by the illiterate, Americans, and Australians (:-)

    If you worry about this sort of thing, I would definitely buy a copy of Fowler's (3rd ed. by Burchfield); even better: try to get a copy of the 2nd ed. as well)
    #4AuthorMike E.30 Jan 06, 23:46
    Comment
    So it's true what they say about the German sense of irony..

    You had better stick to your nasty mother tongue, Dominik!
    #5AuthorEmma (BE) *disgusted*31 Jan 06, 00:00
    Comment
    Thank all of you! I think I have figured it out by now...you just saved the good night's sleep!

    @hm -- us
    Thank you for taking the time! And I shall not use 'cuz' anymore, promise! :=)

    @Mike E.
    Thanks for that reference, I'll order a copy tomorrow; I'm lacking a really good grammar book anyway.

    @emma
    now you r e a l l y got me confused. But as far as the 'nasty' language is concerned, let me counter that one with Hermann Hesse:

    Wie jede Blüte welkt und jede Jugend
    Dem Alter weicht, blüht jede Lebensstufe,
    Blüht jede Weisheit auch und jede Tugend
    Zu ihrer Zeit und darf nicht ewig dauern.
    Es muß das Herz bei jedem Lebensrufe
    Bereit zum Abschied sein und Neubeginne,
    Um sich in Tapferkeit und ohne Trauern
    In andre, neue Bindungen zu geben.
    Und jedem Anfang wohnt ein Zauber inne,
    Der uns beschützt und der uns hilft, zu leben.

    Wir sollen heiter Raum um Raum durchschreiten,
    An keinem wie an einer Heimat hängen,
    Der Weltgeist will nicht fesseln uns und engen,
    Er will uns Stuf' um Stufe heben, weiten.
    Kaum sind wir heimisch einem Lebenskreise
    Und traulich eingewohnt, so droht Erschlaffen,
    Nur wer bereit zu Aufbruch ist und Reise,
    Mag lähmender Gewöhnung sich entraffen.

    Es wird vielleicht auch noch die Todesstunde
    Uns neuen Räumen jung entgegen senden,
    Des Lebens Ruf an uns wird niemals enden...
    Wohlan denn, Herz, nimm Abschied und gesunde!
    #6AuthorDominik (GER)31 Jan 06, 00:16
    Comment
    Ich habe soeben diesen Faden gelesen und muß zugeben, daß ich verwirrt bin.
    Auch wenn es mich nicht betrifft, hätte ich gerne gewußt, was Emma(BE) so an Dominiks Beitrag empört hat.

    Meiner Ansicht nach hat sich Dominik für das Kompliment seine Sprachkenntnisse betreffend bedankt, und außerdem festgestellt, daß Englisch eine tolle Sprache ist. Also ich kann hier keinen Sarkasmus feststellen.

    Oder gibt es hier einen Unterton, der mir auf Grund meiner schlechten Englischkenntnisse entgeht? (Ist "awesome" vielleicht nicht das beste Wort?) Bitte um Aufklärung, aus reinem Interesse. Danke,
    #7Authorgrifter31 Jan 06, 00:44
    Comment
    I'm puzzled too -- I thought Emma gave Dominik an honest compliment, and I didn't notice anyone being ironic. Do I need an irony detector too, or Emma, were you referring to something else? Maybe another thread, perhaps where Dominik complimented someone whose German was less good?
    #8Authorhm -- us31 Jan 06, 00:50
    Comment
    Returning to the original topic ("like" vs "as"):

    In the US in the 1950s, there was a huge controversy over a cigarette slogan on television and in printed ads: "Winston tastes good, like a cigarette should."

    Teachers were horrified, there were letters of outrage in the newspapers, and there was even a movement to boycott Winston cigarettes. But the ads just reflected the fact that American usage was already ignoring the like/as distinction, and the clock could not be turned back.

    It is still good practice to avoid "like" as a conjunction. But this battle was lost long ago, at least on this side of the pond.
    #9AuthorGeorgeA (US)31 Jan 06, 02:46
    Comment
    I've just checked out the forum - I didn't write that! I don't know who used my name and tried to pass that comment off as mine but it's pretty childish and very unwelcome!
    #11AuthorEmma - this time it's me!31 Jan 06, 08:24
    Comment
    :)
    Actually, Emma, I thought that you were either kidding or someone else passed that comment off as yours anyway ... but I'm relieved, you set that straight, because I really didn't spot any irony in your first post.
    I hope you liked the poem...:=)

    #12AuthorDominik (GER)31 Jan 06, 09:46
    Comment
    @ Dominik:

    It's quite worrying that somebody finds it acceptable to pass themselves off as somebody else - you never know whether anybody is who they say they are and it ruins the purpose and atmosphere of the site. Ich lerne 7 Jahre Deutsch und werde nie behaupten, dass sie eine 'nasty' Sprache sei!
    #13AuthorEmma (BE) 31 Jan 06, 10:00
    Comment
    OH NO, NOT HIM AGAIN!!!
    There is a nasty brat haunting this forum by wantonly spreading insults and rude remarks just for the fun of it. As long as he does it under his own nicks (he has a whole set of them, of course) his behaviour is just trollish, but borrowing the nick of a perfectly respectable person like Emma(BE) goes far beyond that.
    Should we collect money to buy him an extra-speedy car and then hope that the German Autobahnverkehr takes good care of him?
    #14AuthorKorkeasaari31 Jan 06, 10:28
    Comment
    Yep, HE has been busy again. I've actually come around 180° on the issue of registration. Ok, he could still register and pass himself off as "Emma (BE) disgusted" but than it would be pretty obvious that he wasn't Emma...
    #15Authorall for registration31 Jan 06, 12:37
     
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