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    (for) as long as it can

    Comment

    "Our body tries to protect itself (for) as long as it can..."

    Is the "for" mandatory, or optional, or not needed at all?

    Thanks!

    Author sunny_morning (970390) 27 Dec 13, 08:39
    Comment
    Could you perhaps fill in your language profile?
    #1Author Jurist (US) (804041) 27 Dec 13, 08:45
    Comment
    Must admit, I have no clue what rules apply but from the "feeling" I'd say:
    Our body tries to guard itself for as long as it could
    speaking of a body, I would rather use "guard"
    #2Author Yvonn_11 (917102) 27 Dec 13, 12:19
    Comment
    The "for" is optional, but adding/removing it changes the meaning of the sentence.

    "As long as it can" would mean something like "solange er kann", while "for as long as it can" would be more like "möglichst lange."
    #3Author RTH01 (932829) 27 Dec 13, 12:59
    Comment
    "Our body tries to guard itself for as long as it could" aus der #2 scheint mir aber nicht richtig, oder?
    #4Author igm (387309) 27 Dec 13, 13:25
    Comment
    #4 "Guard" and "could" both look strange to me. I would stick with the original sentence.
    #5Author RTH01 (932829) 27 Dec 13, 14:12
    Comment
    If adding or removing a word from a sentence changes its meaning, it's not optional. In the OP's sentence, the "for" is indeed optional because the sentence retains the same meaning with or without it. On the other hand, I don't think it's optional in most cases (and certainly not in formal sentences), and "for," in this type of context at any rate, emphasizes a length of time and is needed.
    #6AuthorKai (236222) 27 Dec 13, 14:56
    Comment
    If adding a word changes the meaning of the sentence, and the meanngs of the sentence with and without the word are both acceptable, then the word is optional.
    #7Author RTH01 (932829) 27 Dec 13, 15:39
    Comment
    If omitting/including a word changes the meaning of a sentence, that meaning has obviously changed, i.e., is not the same. How can such a word then be "optional"?
    #8AuthorKai (236222) 27 Dec 13, 15:42
    Comment
    If both meanings are acceptable, you are free to use the word or not use it. It is optional.
    #9Author RTH01 (932829) 27 Dec 13, 16:06
    Comment
    I have to agree; I do not believe for changes the meaning of the sentence, #3 notwithstanding.

    But it is not needed, so the sentence is better without it.
    #10Author Bob C. (254583) 27 Dec 13, 16:06
    Comment
    I think you're comparing apples with oranges, RTH01. But I also disagree with Bob C. that the sentence is "better without it." I think it sounds more formal with "for" and more colloquial without it.
    #11AuthorKai (236222) 27 Dec 13, 16:36
    Comment
    Of course everyone is free to pursue their own style, even if that means dropping in redundant words.
    #12Author Bob C. (254583) 27 Dec 13, 17:14
    Comment
    As long as you think that's what's happening, Bob ...
    #13AuthorKai (236222) 27 Dec 13, 17:28
    Comment
    The two versions (with and without "for") aren't interchageable. They have different meanings and involve different grammatical constructions.

    In the first, without "for", "as long as" is a conjuction, meaning "provided" (as in "you can come as long as you leave after I do").

    The second uses "for", indicating a length of time, plus "as ... as ..." (as in "you can come for as long as you like"). This is presumably the form intended in #0.

    The reason these are getting confused is that there are sentences such as "I'll stay/live/survive (for) as long as I can", which keep the same meaning if the "for" is omitted. But these are special cases. The verbs involved can take a length of time as a direct object. That doesn't work with "protect" though. "Our body tries to protect itself three hours" is poor English, and so is "our body tries to protect itself as long as it can", unless "as long as" is being used as a conjunction.
    #14Author RTH01 (932829) 27 Dec 13, 19:38
    Comment
    I would use the for.
    I don't think that omitting it changes the meaning.
    I had to reread #14 twice to understand the point being made. But perhaps it does point a possible ambiguity, which would support the use of for for clarity.
    #15Author svaihingen (705121) 28 Dec 13, 01:07
    Comment
    In the sentence

    Our body tries to protect itself as long as it can.

    as long as can mean either if it is able to do so or for such a length of time as it is able to do so.

    Without context, it is not possible to say which. However, our body tries to protect itself as long as it can meaning for such a duration as is possible is not poor English but completely grammatical and idiomatic.
    #16Author Bob C. (254583) 28 Dec 13, 02:34
    Comment
    OK. I'm not going to argue with that.

    Maybe it's a regional thing, maybe it isn't.
    #17Author RTH01 (932829) 28 Dec 13, 03:28
     
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