Hi Lena,
I had a look at that website you quoted, and I suppose you mean the scribble that follows on after H. Well, that would not be recognised as an I, more like a lower case l (as in l for leather). If I were you, I would change it to look more like the printed I you read here.

... and the Q looks like a 2, and the Zed like a 3 scribbled by a drunk. That could indeed lead to misunderstandings.

I can't answer that but it reminds me of another question: Can anyone point me to a picture of how ß is usually written in German handwriting, or would anyone like to venture an explanation?

My German textbook in college never mentioned that, and I just sort of made up a form for myself that works, more or less, but I would be curious to know how it's really supposed to look. In particular, whether it's supposed to have both an upstroke and a downstroke on the left side; I tend to just begin it from beneath the baseline and go up, but I have the feeling that's not really standard and may look confusingly more like a beta.

Another question for the Americans: Do you really write capital Q like the example in Lena's link? That's how I was taught in school too, but I never do it because it looks so much like the numeral 2. I just make a complete O with a short slash, like in manuscript, and continue the slash on into the next letter.

>>to look more like the printed I

But that would not be cursive, that would be printing, no? How are the British taught to do it in cursive? Anyone have a link?

Hell hm-us

Yeah, the German sharp s, or "Esszett", as we know it in German. You could do a hell of a lot worde than using the Greek beta. Actually, if you put a little curve, like a crescent, opening downwards, at the middle of the long upstroke, you are virtually there.
I am going to look for a website that shows "Suetterlin" script, I remember seeing one there some time ago (PS: I once learnt it at school, in year 3 or 4, I think. Teacher said this was the old way people used to write, thank heavens no longer, but it would be useful for us to know it, so that we could understand what a load of rubbish used to be written in the old style.) Once I found it I let you know so you can see it.
Regards

yes, that's what i'd wonder too...how is it taught in britian (or germany, for that matter).

hm, i've only ever seen the ß written a bit like a B but with a long tail at the front (bottom, not top...). But as I am not from Germany there are probably better experts.

And yes, I do do my Q's that way...I guess i've never thought too much about it, that was just the way we learned it.

@Lena - The only letter I've adapted is the "Q," but changed that years ago, while still in school. My German friends and colleagues have gotten used to my handwriting. The only "negative" comment I ever heard, was "Your handwriting looks like a child's." Had even forgotten that that is how we were taught. I still have trouble reading my (German) childrens handwriting, especially in sentences containing m's, n's, u's, w's and v's. The sentence ends up looking like a bunch of half-scoops or lattices :-)

@hein mück: Thanks, and in fact, here's one: http://www.peter-doerling.de/Englisch/Sutterl...

I actually looked at several Sütterlin sites a while ago in connection with some genealogy research. (I never succeeded in really learning to read it; I still have to look at the examples and laboriously decode.)

So the ß is still like that in modern German handwriting, like a capital B with a spike at both top and bottom? The difference is that for ß the spike extends below the baseline, but not for B?

@Lena - Didn't proofread my first post, had added something, and thus messed up my answer. Should have read:

"The only letter I've adapted is the "Q," but changed that years ago, while still in school. Had even forgotten that that is how we were taught."

yes, i do tend to mix-up the m's, n's, and u's in german handwriting too...sometimes there just seems to be a line too few or many;)

thanks for the explanation, carly, i was puzzling over that!

Lena:
Your F seems to be fine, judging by the website you quoted. That is how we learnt it in Germany, but that is handwriting for beginner, in year 1 or 2, age 6 or so. Handwriting after that develops into a bit more of a personal style, and to write like that is pretty cumbersome and slow anyway, it is far quicker to write using a style that looks more like printed work. All those upstrokes and downstrokes and whatever it is, is such a waste of time and ink if you have to write quickly. The "Z" we learnt in Geermany is pretty much like the Z you see here, but most of us put a small horizontal dash through the slopy line that links the top horizontal with the bottom horizontal, to avoid possible confusion with a sloppily written "2".

Hi hm-us:

Yeah, I saw that one, and there are several others, although most of them do not appear to have a good representation of a handwritten Esszett. I
found this website which might be useful: http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~ma8/esze...

Yes, the vertical stroke on the left hand side goes down below the base line, but it does not extend upwards, instead it curves to the right into the "B", and looks like the Greek beta. The little "handle" I tried to describe earlier is on the upstroke, at about the same height where the middle bit of the "B" is (almost) touching the vertical.

All confused now?

Verzeihung, aber die anfangs gestellte Frage erscheint mir wieder einmal als eine von der Sorte, die aus Langeweile sprich aus Debattierlust geboren wurde. Der Link illustriert mit wenigen Abweichungen die im westlichen Sprachraum weitherum gelehrte "Zusammenschreibweise", die ganz klar im entsprechenden Gebiet entziffert werden kann - umsomehr, wenn man bedenkt, welch optische Verwöhnung man von geübten Handschreibern zu sehen bekommt, deren Abweichungen mitunter mit nichts an die ursprünglichen Vorgaben erinnern. Ich persönlich find's ein sinnliches Vergnügen und die Anfrage von oben - na ja, Stuss, der mir im Uebrigen vorkommt wie diese wiederholt aufgewärmte Debatte für und wider des deutschen Esszett: Gute Güte, der Sinn ergibt sich doch aus dem Zusammenhang. Oder sonst müsste man auch neue Buchstaben für beispielsweise Rost (Zustand der Zersetzung von Metall) und Rost (Gitter) erfinden. Eine Gewöhnungsfrage, meine ich.

The cursive handwriting taught in German elementary schools in the early 1970s (when I attended elementary school) was called "lateinische Ausgangsschrift". A depiction of all letters including 'ß' can be found at the following website: http://mikrolisk.de/content/kunst.schrift/lat...

I can read Sütterlin with some difficulty. Individual letters from Sütterlin were used in my highschool math classes to denote vectors, mimicking the use of "Fraktur" typeface for the single-letter names of vectors in printed texts: http://mikrolisk.de/content/kunst.schrift/sue...

The website referenced also has examples of older types of German handwriting:
http://mikrolisk.de/show.php?site=302

@Norbert: Thanks, perfect. Nice link, and its ß looks just like what hein mück described. (-:

The 'vereinfachte' version from 2001 there was surprising -- hardly cursive at all, more like printing. But on the other hand, its second ß did look pretty much like mine, so I guess I shouldn't complain.


@spitfire:
>>aus Langeweile sprich aus Debattierlust

Is that a problem for you? Someone holding a gun to your head and forcing you to answer? You do seem to be posting here on a weekend anyway yourself, you know. (-;

Interesting links. Special thanks to Norbert.

When first learning cursive, I was taught to make the capital A as shown in the link cited by Lena. When I got to high school I had a teacher who insisted that I couldn't write my name that way; in her opinion the A looked too childish. She insisted that I use an A more like the one used in the lateinische Ausgangsschrift cited by Norbert. To this day I consciously think about how to write the A every time I write my name (after high school I eventually went back to my old A). Pretty dumb when you have to think about how to write your own name. Darn teacher!

As for the Q, I don't remember learning the Q as in Lena'a link. Either my teacher didn't require it or I soon changed to a more typical Q.

I changed years ago to a sort of print, since I couldn't read my own handwriting anymore.

Hi Lena!

I don't know if this will answer your question (you seem to adress mainly british ns), but I can definitely confirm that your handwriting (or at least the link you posted) would cause problems in Germany. Apart from the problems with the big A Amy already mentioned, I would never recognize the "G" or the "Q" and would have problems with "J", "S" and "Z". Most of the other capital letters are slightly off too (N, M, X). Although I use now-a-days a mix of type-writer and flowing-hand writing, the way I learned the letters is exactly the one shown in Norbert's link.

An ex's mum was a teacher with a lot of experience dealing with foreign students. She told me that she could tell where the students came from by their handwriting, so there must be certain characteristics unique to each country. Therefore, I wouldn't take it too personally when your British colleagues criticise how you write.

Ich musste an der Schule leider die Vereinfachte Ausgangsschrift lernen:
http://www.regierung.oberpfalz.bayern.de/leis...

Inzwischen habe ich mir eine Mischung aus ihr und Druckschrift angewöhnt.

Leider habe ich nicht die alte Handschrift gelernt:
http://www.regierung.oberpfalz.bayern.de/leis...

Hier noch ein Schriftbildvergleich:
http://www.regierung.oberpfalz.bayern.de/leis...

@Norbert + Jan - These examples do not resemble what my children were taught. If, for example, they wrote "summen," the "umm...n" all ended up looking like a string of u's (same thing with my German colleagues' handwriting).

@Jan:
Vereinfachte Ausgangsschrift 2001?
That's how I was told to write, although it is just considered a basis.

@Carly: Da das Schulwesen in Deutschland auf der Ebene der Bundeslaender geregelt ist, haette ich vielleicht genauer sagen sollen, dass ich die lateinische Ausgangsschrift so, wie auf der von mir angegebenen Webseite gezeigt, in Nordrhein-Westfalen gelernt habe. Ich kann mich aber nicht an Unterschiede beim Wechsel nach Niedersachsen erinnern. Die Eigenschaft, dass die Buchstaben 'u', 'm' und 'n' alle gleich aussehen, kenne ich persoenlich nur von Frauenhandschriften.

Oje, diese "vereinfachte Ausgangsschrift" sieht ja grauenhaft aus. Das ist ja schlimmer als die Rechtschreibreform.

@Carly: In der Handschrift, insbesondere aelterer Personen, sehen n, m und u haeufig gleich aus. Das ist entweder persoenlicher Stil oder - im Fall aelterer Kollegen - noch ein Ueberbleibsel aus dem Suetterlin, bei dem man das u kennzeichnen musste, um es vom n zu unterscheiden.
http://www.peter-doerling.de/Englisch/Sutterl...

Auch meine Handschrift sieht nicht so aus wie Norberts Beispiel, aber sein Beispiel zeigt, was man mir damals beibrachte.

Unabhaengig vom Bundesland sollten deine Kinder aber keine Handschrift beigebracht bekommen haben, in der n wie u geschrieben wird. Entweder haben sie also nicht aufgepasst ;) , oder sie hatten eine(n) wirklich schlechte(n) Lehrer(in). Gibt es leider genauso haeufig wie die wirklich guten. :(

Und noch was zum Vergleich: http://www-gewi.kfunigraz.ac.at/oedt/schulsch.html

(Österreichische Schulschrift 1995 und 1969)

I can only confirm that American handwriting can be very difficult for Germans to read. Upon a few recent occasions, my boyfriend had to read a few texts I had written in German which he was correcting for me. I was surprised to learn, for example, that he didn't recognize my capital G, since his last name begins with G. It made me wonder about the fact that I found a stack of letters I had written him (back when we still wrote letters to each other!) that seemed to be unopened. I'm pretty sure that with time the flaps on the envelopes probably just resealed themselves, but I actually wondered if he had been able to read so little of my letters that he had just stopped opening them! I'll definitely try to be careful in the future when writing to Germans to avoid the G,I,J, etc which seem to be most problematic. I actually have pretty good textbook handwriting when I try to write nicely, but that's not the problem. I think the American script is still more old-fashioned. In a paleography course the teacher passed out a copy of a French international alphabet from the 17th century (???) which looked a lot like what I learned in school!

@Norbert + Hein - Vielleicht haben meine Kinder tatsächlich die ersten Jahren ihre m's und n's mit "Bückelen" versehen, aber irgendwann verschwanden sie alle, und für die bereits erwähnten Buchstaben verblieben nur "Täler".

EY:
I also write (well, try to) the way shown on the cited site. That's what we learned in school in the States and were expected to follow. It or the book from which we learned had a name (like Scopes or Smith, or Jones), which I can't recall. While Germans have trouble with my capital Gs and Qs, I had NO idea what a German written lower-case "x" was, causing real confusion and embarrassment when I asked what "sese" meant. By the way, my German ex could hardly read her mother's hand-writing and neither could read Suetterlin.

In the library I worked at, there was a card with S. on it, so users (Germans as well as foreigners) could read the old Bandkatalog.

When I went to a museum that happened to have a text from the 17th and 18th century, the Germans with me couldn't read the German text (well, they could decipher it a little). I could do just about the same, but the French words in the text were written in what for all intents and purposes was the same style I write in (just much neater) and perfectly legible to me. The only difference was the use of the letters for s. See also the Declaration of Independence. http://www.barefootsworld.net/images/decstone.jpg

Interessantes Thema!

Ich habe (1. Schuljahr 1968) auch die "lateinische Ausgangsschrift" gelernt. Und ich kann mich noch gut erinnern, dass ich der Meinung war, die gleiche Schreibung der Buchstaben "u" und "n" muss sein, wenn man erwachsen ist! Eine Zeit lang habe ich tatsächlich so geschrieben, mit einem kleinen Strich über dem "u". Das war für mich einfach ein sehr gewohntes Schriftbild, da sowohl meine Mutter als auch später ältere Arbeitskollegen oder Chefs so schrieben. Das habe ich mir inzwischen wieder abgewöhnt, aber schnell geschrieben können "u" und "n" bei mir wirklich gleich aussehen - obwohl nie Sütterlin gelernt!!

Überhaupt hat es bei mir sehr lange gedauert, bis ich die gelernte "Kinderhandschrift" endlich ablegte und meine eigene Handschrift entwickelt habe. Da muss ich schon so 20 gewesen sein.
Interessanterweise lernten meine Kinder (Schulbeginn 1996 und 1998) beide verschiedene Handschriften, allerdings begannen beide mit Druckbuchstaben, wie es wohl auch in England üblich ist. Daraus folgt, dass meine Tochter heute bereits mit 16 eine recht "erwachsene" persönliche Handschrift hat, wohl durch die Kombination aus Druck- und Schreibschrift.

Beide Kinder haben das "s" und das "z" in einer Form gelernt, wie ich es von meiner Oma (Sütterlin!) kannte. Ich habe bis heute teilweise Schwierigkeiten, die Schrift meines Sohnes zu lesen, weil ich das "s" meist nicht entziffern kann!

Durch die verschiedenen gelernten Schriften allein in meiner Familie ist es für mich völlig normal, wenn Schriftbilder sich extrem unterscheiden oder auch völlig ungewohnt aussehen. Allerdings frage ich mich manchmal, warum das eigentlich so sein muss, dass jede Generation eine andere Handschrift lernen muss, obwohl sich doch an der gedruckten, lateinischen Schrift nichts geändert hat!? (Von den Methoden, Kindern Lesen und Schreiben überhaupt beizubringen, möchte ich lieber gar nicht erst anfangen!)

Zum Thema verschiedene Handschriften der Länder: Bei uns hat sich firmenintern eine englische Schreibweise der Zahlen eingebürgert. Für englische Verhältnisse sieht unsere "1" ja wie eine "7" aus, wobei wir in Deutschland einen Querstrich durch die "7" machen. Da ich in einem amerikanischen Unternehmen arbeite, wobei der Kontakt mit englischen Kollegen ungleich höher ist, hat sich die Version eingebürgert, die "1" nur als Strich zu schreiben, und die "7" ohne den Querstrich. Mir fällt manchmal auf (z.B. privat beim Ausfüllen von Formularen), dass ich die 1 mal so - mal so schreibe.
Was auch oft schwierig ist, ist die umgekehrte Verwendung von Punkt und Komma in England/USA und Deutschland bei Zahlen. Hat schon oft zu lustigen Verwirrspielen bei Zahlenreihen geführt!

Ich stimme zu, dass insbesondere das grosse I, wie von Lena beschrieben schwer lesbar ist. G und Q benoetigen ebenfalls Kontext fuer bessere Erkennbarkeit.

Auch ich habe die "lateinische Ausgangsschrift" gelernt. Da meine Groessmuetter beide eine Mischung von Suetterlin und lateinischer Schrift schrieben, habe ich fuehrzeitig gelernt, auch Suetterlin zu lesen und irgendwann auch angefangen es "so zum Spass" zu schreiben. Zur gleichen Zeit habe ich insgesamt Interesse an Kalligraphie entwickelt, was zweifellos meine Handschrift drastisch beeinflusst hat. Meine Handschrift gilt allgemein als gut lesbar :-) solange ich nicht Notizen nur fuer mich selbst schreibe. Im letzteren Falle sind sie auch fuer mich nach spaetestens drei Wochen unlesbar.

Bei den Zahlen habe ich inzwischen 1 und 7 so umgestellt, dass sie auf beiden Seiten des Atlantiks gelesen werden koennen - die 1 ist ein senkrechter Strich, der manchmal noch einen *kurzen*, *steilen* Aufstrich bekommt; die 7 ist ohne Querstrich, die obere Linie ist wagrecht und oft leicht geschwungen.

Oh how interesting!
I'm a German in GB and I changed my continental 1 to the single stroke 1 to avoid it being misread as a 7. I kept my continental 7 though, because it doesn't couse misreadings.

But just think, if I wanted to read my Great Grandparent's letters I'd have to get my head round this http://www.kurrent.de/

Looking at the link Lena originally posted, that's how I was taught to write as well, and that's how I still form my letters (with the exception of the capital "Q", as others have mentioned. I make it like a regular printed "Q", and just connect the tail to the next letter in the word). In terms of people not understanding your writing, well I know how that feels.

I started school Michigan, and we were taught "pre-cursive". Basically, normal printing but with more rounded curves than points (for example, in a "w"), and tails coming off some of the letters. The asumption was that when we started to learn cursive in the 2nd grade or so, it would be easier because we would just have to start connecting all the letters we already knew.

But halfway through first grade, my family moved to Tennesse for a couple years. Students there were not taught "pre-cursive", but rather a very blocky style of printing (form each letter by making a series of straight lines, rather than one continuous line). The teacher had trouble reading my writing, the other kids made fun of it, and I eventually switched to their style of printing. In Tennessee, they didn't start teaching cursive until 3rd or 4th grade, which I think is kind of late. I'm pretty sure it wasn't until 4th, because I moved back to Michigan just before 4th grade and was worried about going back to school and not being able to write cursive when all the other kids could. My parents bought me a book to teach me and that's how I learned.

In general, my writing is not that great. One of my teachers once asked my mom if I had some type of hand injury because I wrote so poorly. When writing for myself, it's usually a mix of cursive and printing, and my writing is kind of small and cramped. When I'm writing something other people will read, I have to make an effort to write very carefully, so I'd rather just type everything.

<off topic> @Nicole: Boy, I'm with you on the problems caused by moving around in elementary school. I started kndergarten at 4 in Michigan, I was a little young, but not extremely young. The next year my family moved to Missouri and the school told my parents I had to repeat kindergarten because I was too young to succeed and I would just get discouraged (apparently they had a rule that kids had to be 5 before the start of the school year). My parents convinced the school to give me a "test", which I passed and so was able to go ahead to first grade. The next year we moved back to Michigan, where I attended 2nd and 3rd grades. Then in 4th grade we moved to Illinois. Due to all this moving around I totally missed learning the English system of measurements and weights. Probably Michigan introduced metrics first since "everything's going to be metric soon" (it was the 70's) and Illinois introduced the English system first and then metrics. Anyway, for awhile I was the only kid who could say how many cm long something was, but if I read that something was 3 in. long or a person was 5' tall, it meant nothing to me. I eventually learned that it didn't get me very far to say that something weighed 12 kg and managed to pick up the English system. I don't remember any problems with learning to write, maybe I lucked out there. As for the teacher asking if you had had an accident: sigh, sometimes teachers say things that are really just stupid. I'm a teacher and really try not to say anything like that, but I'm always a little afraid that somethings going to slip out and be remembered by a former student 10 or 25 years later. <off topic>

@Amy, continuing with the OT :-) - I'm fortunate, I only had to move twice, I imagine 4 times would be really hard! It's funny, we think of school in the US being pretty much the same across the board, but when you experience various systems, you see how many differences there are and how your education really can be affected by where you live. I was young enough when I moved though that I didn't have many difficulties adapting to the curriculum (other than handwriting), my challenges were adapting socially to a different culture and lifestyle.

As for the teacher who asked about my terrible handwriting - I don't have any bad feelings against her. I remember her as being very kind and caring and nice, and my parents and I knew that my handwriting was bad. It was surprising when she asked it, but now I just laugh about it. I agree, it probably wasn't the best use of judgement when she asked, but I'm sure she would have only asked out of concern and possibly to find a way to help.
The very fact that you're conscious of needing to be careful with what you say to students shows you're considerate and value their feelings and opinions. Those are qualities that make a good teacher, and also make the students likely to remember you for good reasons.