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    It would be nice if...

    Comment
    Can you ever use the present tense after this phrase? It sounds odd to me, and according to the grammar books you can't do that in a Type 2 conditional clause - it should be the simple past.
    For example:
    It would be nice if the flat is in a nice area. (I'd say was/were)
    It would be nice if you can lend me 10 euros. (I'd say could)
    The question came up because a native speaker (British) insisted that it is absolutely fine to use the present here. However, I've never heard that before. I just wonder what other natives say, and if it is possible to use the verb in the present tense, I'd like to know whether it's very common?

    Thank you!
    AuthorKATRINA (338129) 17 Apr 16, 12:25
    Comment
    I'm not a BE speaker, but that sort of stuff grates my ears. I would never say it myself, much less write it, but I hear it every once in awhile, unfortunately. I can't imagine it would be much different for a BE speaker.
    #1Author dude (253248) 17 Apr 16, 14:36
    Comment
    #1 - I agree, but what comes to mind concerning conditional clauses and wishes (which are dealt with in one chapter in one of my grammar books) are the lyrics of an Amy McDonald hit in which she sings:
    "I wish I knew you before." instead of "had known (I'd known)" you before, which would be in line with traditional grammar.
    #2Author maxxpf (361343) 17 Apr 16, 18:44
    Comment
    @maxxpf
    I have heard people making that 'mistake' (using a simple past instead of the past perfect in Third Conditionals) a few times, and you indeed sometimes hear it in songs etc, but what do you think about the examples I gave in the OP? Would you also agree that it's impossible to say that, or at least that it's not common at all?
    Thank you!
    #3AuthorKATRINA (338129) 17 Apr 16, 18:50
    Comment
    @ maxxpf
    Sorry, I only just saw your #1 agree...
    Thank you!
    #4AuthorKATRINA (338129) 17 Apr 16, 18:51
    Comment
    @#2: I'm not sure what that has to do with the OP. I wish I knew the answer (for example) obviously differs from I wish I'd known you before. The song text you quote there may just be poetic license, or very casual speech, but it doesn't really relate to the OP's question.
    #5Author dude (253248) 17 Apr 16, 19:37
    Comment
    #5 - Just as the OP, this sentence is another example in which a British native violates a grammar rule that is dealt with in the same chapter as the OP. This chapter in "English Grammar in Use", published by Cambridge University Press is called "Conditionals and 'wish'".
    #6Author maxxpf (361343) 17 Apr 16, 19:50
    Comment
    Ich lese mit Erstaunen, maxxpf, dass du den OP nicht darauf hinweist, dass 'conditional type 2' eigentlich der conditional 1 ist.
    #7Author Gibson (418762) 17 Apr 16, 20:13
    Comment
    Da trübt dich aber leider deine Erinnerung, Gibson!
    conditional sentences type I, according to my book - and according to all the grammar books I know, would be:
    If the flat is in a nice area, I will be glad.

    Wie auch immer, zum Einsatz kommt beim conditional clause type II das conditonal I (would + infinitive), und das ist hier ja noch nicht einmal strittig! :-)
    #8Author maxxpf (361343) 17 Apr 16, 20:21
    Comment
    Und du findest tatsächlich, dass das irgendwie sinnvoll klingt, was du schreibst?
    #9Author Gibson (418762) 17 Apr 16, 20:24
    Comment
    #9 - in der Tat, da es um den Unterschied zwischen clause type und verwendeter tense geht.
    Kauf dir doch vielleicht ganz einfach einmal eine aktuelle Schulgrammatik! :-)
    Du darfst aber gerne auch einmal hier reinschauen, aber nur, weil du es bist: :-)

    #10Author maxxpf (361343) 17 Apr 16, 20:28
    Comment
    If the flat is in a nice area, I will be glad. - Who says that? Is that actually in a book?
    #11Author dude (253248) 17 Apr 16, 20:42
    Comment
    I would not, necessarily, but the sentence can serve as an example of a conditional sentence type I with regard to the tenses used.

    More typical would be:
    If the sun shines tomorrow, I will go swimming.
    #12Author maxxpf (361343) 17 Apr 16, 20:45
    Comment
    That depends on what you consider typical. I'd argue that, more typically, people tend to say "if the sun shines tomorrow, I'm going swimming."
    #13Author dude (253248) 17 Apr 16, 20:49
    Comment
    #13 That might well be the case. However, I am bound to teach my student that the standard is to use the will-future, as explained here:


    (Please note that I am not the author of that grammar page, and neither am I the author of the schoool grammars that we use. Still, I am bound by law to teach that it is the standard to use the will-future here. But occasionally I do tell my students that practical usage sometimes differs from the strict grammar rules and I hope very much that that is okay with you.)
    #14Author maxxpf (361343) 17 Apr 16, 20:57
    Comment
    Okay, that's fine, but I don't think you can consider "If the flat is in a nice area, I will be glad" standard, too.
    #15Author dude (253248) 17 Apr 16, 21:02
    Comment
    #15 - I think that might depend on the situation, and I certainly do not want to argue about that. I just wrote that sentence that way to turn one of the OP's sentence into if-clause type I to point out to Gibson just how that if-clause type is constructed according to the rules valid at our schools.
    #16Author maxxpf (361343) 17 Apr 16, 21:07
    Comment
    Never mind.
    #17Author dude (253248) 17 Apr 16, 21:17
    Comment
    #17
    - I do have some very few students whose command of English I just find astonishing, at least when they have a good day. But usually that is the result of their own participation in English language blogs or because they are Dutch and watch English language movies in the original language at home - with subtitles. It's not usually a result of our German school education. But so many just don't want to bother to precisely express in English what they feel or think.

    edit: Be sure that we do not always focus on grammar only. Also we do make them aware of differences between formal und informal usage, we address the topic of different variants of English in different parts of the world, of different dialects and so fourth, which was all not the case a generation ago, at least not to the same extent as today.

    #18Author maxxpf (361343) 17 Apr 16, 21:29
    Comment
    Curious: do your students get to read your contributions here on LEO?
    #19Author dude (253248) 17 Apr 16, 21:37
    Comment
    re #18 von maxxpf

    An die native speakers: Sagt man eigentlich für 'einen guten Tag haben' (im Sinne des Kontexts) im Englischen 'have a good day'? - d.h. zum Beispiel, sagt man: sb. doesn't have a good day today....
    Ist das idiomatisch? Mich wurmt gerade, dass ich es nicht weiß.

    #20AuthorBraunbärin (757733) 17 Apr 16, 21:44
    Comment
    I wasn't going to go there, but ...

    I think most people would use the progressive there: someone's (not) having a good day. In #18, too: at least when they're having a god day. But more to the point, I don't think that's the proper phrase for what I think is supposed to be expressed: on a good day
    #21Author dude (253248) 17 Apr 16, 21:49
    Comment
    As a learner, you should IMO definitely stick to the "canonical" form for remote conditions.
    Without more context (and if I were really expressing a condition) my natural tendency would be to say
    "It would be nice if the flat were in a nice area.",
    though (for social reasons) I would probably be more likely to actually say "was" in real life.
     
    However, particularly with the first example, there might be circumstances where a Brit would say  "It would be nice if the flat is in a nice area."
    There may even be (reasonable but linguistically complicated) contexts where I would not necessarily classify it as non-standard.
     
    There are a number of complicating issues, one of which is that (pragmatically) " It would be nice if ..." often introduces something other than a proper remote condition; IOW the first example is not really comparable with
    "If I found a two-bedroom flat in the Herne Hill area for less than half a million, I would buy it immediately."
    #22AuthorMikeE (236602) 17 Apr 16, 21:53
    Comment
    #19 - they might, I think some of them know my nickname, but there will be more who are aware of my newspaper articles in German, about cultural events - actually I'm working on one right now, far too slowly, to be sure. Some young pediatrist who used to be a student of mine told me he enjoys reading them, for example.
    And a lot of them have probably googled me because they have found out that a piece of so-called literary criticism of mine was published online by the online platform of the Düsseldorf-based Rheinische Post and you can find it very easily by just googling my name.
    I have occasionally mentioned that I have started some threads and have been referring to others like this one I did not participate in:
    (We're watching - that is: have to watch "Billy Elliot" - at the moment.)

    #20, #21: I had checked the expression "have a good day" before posting it and got the impression that it is used by native speakers to some degree, even in the present simple:
    #23Author maxxpf (361343) 17 Apr 16, 22:15
    Comment
    The simple present usually expresses habitual action (with this type of verb/phrase), so it would be unusual with "today".
    #24AuthorMikeE (236602) 18 Apr 16, 02:14
    Comment
    #24 - "have" is a stative verb as well, in our grammar book, and I do not think that it is used in a way like "have a party" or "have breakfast" in this context.

    By the way, dude has criticised me from digressing from the original OP's question, he and a lot of others have done that even more extensively than I did. Why don't you all go ahead to deal with the original OP's question or move on to other threads.
    #25Author maxxpf (361343) 18 Apr 16, 08:16
    Comment
    An die native speakers: Sagt man eigentlich für 'einen guten Tag haben' (im Sinne des Kontexts) im Englischen 'have a good day'? - d.h. zum Beispiel, sagt man: sb. doesn't have a good day today....
    Ist das idiomatisch? Mich wurmt gerade, dass ich es nicht weiß.

    You would say "s/he's not having a good day today".
    #26Author Pipper (917363) 18 Apr 16, 10:02
     
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