Advertising - LEO without ads? LEO Pur
LEO

It looks like you’re using an ad blocker.

Would you like to support LEO?

Disable your ad blocker for LEO or make a donation.

 
  •  
  • Forum home

    Language lab

    commas preceding because correct ?

    Topic

    commas preceding because correct ?

    Comment
    In another thread I discovered that some native speaker used a comma in front of the conjuction because. This is something I have been noticing a lot over the last months. For example, in a collection of Sherlock Holmes stories I read, it seemed to me that practically all the sentences with a because in the middle had a comma preceding them. This has been been troubling me somehow because according to the rules we have to teach at school, there shouldn't be commas preceding subordinate clauses, and I keep marking commas before because as a mistake, but I don't really feel good about that anymore!
    So I would like to know what other users think about whehther or not commas should be placed before because in the middle of sentences.
    Author EarlGreyHey (1188618) 10 Jun 17, 08:20
    Comment
    Quickly forget the "rule" about subordinate clauses not being preceded by a comma.
    It depends on things like the role of the clause.
    Some examples:
    There is no comma before a content clause introduced by that when it is the object of the verb (e.g. He said that …”).
    There is a comma before a supplementary (non-restrictive) relative clause (e.g. introduced by which or who).
    As a general rule, a comma is often preferred before supplementary clauses (where the clause is not essential to the meaning) – and where the clause is parenthetical.
     
    I think we have discussed because before.
    It is probably a good rule of thumb to omit the comma before because, but a comma can be useful to clarify the meaning, for instance when negation is involved.
     
    Use of commas is to a large extent a matter of personal or house style and fashion. The New Yorker, for instance, is known for its relatively heavy use of punctuation ("close punctuation"). If you are interested in punctuation you might want to read articles by Mary Norris, or – for more background – her book, Between You and Me: Confessions of a Comma Queen. Discussing an example of close punctuation, she writes that commas can be used to mark "a thoughtful subordination of information."
     
    In former times, fashions were different, so it would not be surprising to find more commas in the works of Conan Doyle. Charles Dickens, I believe, punctuated by ear (indicating where there would be a pause when reading aloud) in a way that would now, probably, be considered incorrect.

    PS: I just saw what triggered this:
    "There are many other web pages that review these punctuation patterns, because native speakers have trouble with the rules too." [ related discussion: instead (word order) - #7 ]
     
    I think this is an example of "a thoughtful [though possibly unconscious] subordination of information". I would automatically understand the because clause as explaining why "there are many other web pages …" rather than explaining only why they "review these punctuation patterns". Partly because the relative clause is defining/integrated, the difference in meaning is small, and it is also a matter of breaking the sentence up into manageable units.
    #1AuthorMikeE (236602) 10 Jun 17, 09:58
    Comment
    As MikeE says, there is no such rule, and you shouldn't 'automatically' mark them wrong. Although many of them probably are, because usage in German is different.

    A comma in English serves one purpose only, namely to indicate a change in tone group, or what most people would probably call a pause (although objectively there is probably no pause). This is mostly not used as the criterion by teachers, because it is subjective.
    #2Author escoville (237761) 10 Jun 17, 12:05
    Comment
    Thanks for the input, And, to make that very clear, I do not need any advice on the difference between defining and non-defining relative clauses. Thanks especially for referring to the term of "close punctuation", which I had never heard of before.

    Actually, I am aware we often teach strict and absolute ruels that later have to be modified, e.g. with regard to the commas in relative clauses, or the usage of some and any in questions: First we teach them to use any in all questions, then we teach to use some when you expect a positive answer.

    With regard to the question whether there should or should not be commas preceding subordinate clauses, I have also found out in the meantime that the Chicago Manual of Style actually does say that one should normally not use commas, only if the added subordinate clause is "merely supplementary or parenthetical" as in:
    He didn't run, because he was afraid to move.
    To be honest, I don't see what is supplementary of parenthetical about stating that reason, but anyway: I guess I'll be a little more tolerant about commas before subordinate clauses in the future. :-)
    #3Author EarlGreyHey (1188618) 10 Jun 17, 16:45
    Comment
    He didn't run, because he was afraid to move.
    vs.
    He didn't run because he was afraid to move.

    Those two sentences have different meanings. The comma is important to meaning.
    #4AuthorHappyWarrior (964133) 10 Jun 17, 18:34
    Comment
    ...
    #5Author Chrysalis66 (1189140) 10 Jun 17, 18:39
    Comment
    #4: uh, would you mind elaborating? Inquiring minds would like to know more.
    #6AuthorKai (236222) 10 Jun 17, 18:59
    Comment
    #4, #6 - Yes, what could be the difference? Maybe in the version with comma the person in question is generally afraid to move? But it doesn't really seem obvious to me at all...
    #7Author EarlGreyHey (1188618) 10 Jun 17, 19:06
    Comment
    Very helpful, HW. The way I understand it:

    There is a problem with examples that are -- by their very nature -- devoid of context. Every simple (assertive, positive) sentence is the answer to a virtual question. Depending on that question, the sentence, taken as a virtual answer, places its emphasis on different words or a different group of words. In the present case:

    What did he not do? -- He didn't run [answer], because he was afraid to move [supplementary, might be previously known to both].

    Why didn't he run? -- He didn't run [repetition, no new information] because he was afraid to move [answer].

    Subtle. I also agree with MikeE's last paragraph.
    #8Author sebastianW (382026) 10 Jun 17, 19:20
    Comment
    #7
    A better example (without the additional semantics that make one meaning unlikely) might be simply
    "He didn't run because he was afraid". [Implication: he had a different reason for running ]
    "He didn't run, because he was afraid". [Implication: he was afraid to move]
    #9AuthorMikeE (236602) 10 Jun 17, 19:24
    Comment
    While I understand the difference with the appropriate context, it still escapes me the way it's put in #4 (without any context whatsoever).
    #10AuthorKai (236222) 10 Jun 17, 19:28
    Comment
    "He didn't run [no comma] because he was afraid. Rather, he didn't run, [comma] because everybody else was running already.... ."

    So scheint mir das logisch. Und so kann's Happy Warrior ja gemeint haben.
    #11AuthorBraunbärin (757733) 10 Jun 17, 19:28
    Comment
    Only Happy Warrior knows what he really meant. :-)
    #12AuthorKai (236222) 10 Jun 17, 19:30
    Comment
    MikeE (#9) understands.

    He didn't run, because he was afraid to move. = Because he was afraid to move, he didn't run.

    Vs.

    He didn't run because he was afraid to move; (rather) he didn't run because he was carrying his neighbor's couch up three flights of stairs.
    #13AuthorHappyWarrior (964133) 10 Jun 17, 20:19
    Comment
    Sorry, but your first example could be written with or without comma and mean the same thing:

    Why didn't he run?
    He didn't run because he was a afraid to move!

    I see no difference in meaning there, comma or no comma. In fact, my personal preference would be no comma.
    #14AuthorKai (236222) 10 Jun 17, 20:23
    Comment
    You seem to have missed the point of this discussion.
    #15AuthorHappyWarrior (964133) 10 Jun 17, 20:26
    Comment
    No, I got the point, but I stand by my claim (and my preference).
    #16AuthorKai (236222) 10 Jun 17, 20:27
    Comment
    The discussion about the 'He didn't run' sentences in fact illustrate the point I made in #2. The sentences sound different when you say them, and the comma reflects this, just as the H indicates the sound /h/.

    Conversely (what amounts to the same thing) a writer uses the comma (or the H) to tell the reader how to say the sentence (or part of it) and hence derive the meaning. Inserting the comma changes the sound and *hence* the meaning, just as adding an 'S' before 'he' would change the sound, and hence the meaning. Language is processed through the (mind's) ear, not the eye. Commas in English are (normally) part of this process, not just marks on paper inputting directly into meaning or sentence organization.
    #17Author escoville (237761) 10 Jun 17, 22:31
    Comment
    Charles Dickens, I believe, punctuated by ear (#1)
     
    So do I.
    #18Author Stravinsky (637051) 11 Jun 17, 10:07
    Comment
    And I.
    #19Author Jurist (US) (804041) 11 Jun 17, 10:15
    Comment
    Me too, as I think I've made clear.
    #20Author escoville (237761) 11 Jun 17, 12:45
    Comment
    #18, #19, #20, #2
    I agree with escoville that "a comma in English serves […]to indicate a change in tone group", but I would qualify that by adding that a change in tone group or a pause may not always be indicated by a comma.
     
    This is mainly what I meant by
     "Charles Dickens, I believe, punctuated by ear (indicating where there would be a pause when reading aloud) in a way that would now, probably, be considered incorrect."
     
    I have punctuated in this way when writing speeches (that I want to be able to read out if necessary).
    This would include things like a pause for effect occurring between the subject and the verb – or between the verb and its object.
     
    Norris quotes Dickens:
    "But what principally attracted the attention of Nicholas, was the gentleman's eye.… Grafted upon the quaintness and oddity of his appearance, was something so incredibly engaging …"
    "The first house to which they bent their steps, was situated in a terrace of respectable appearance."
    "She bought me for a present, the most hideous Ostrich's egg ever laid."
     
    She also suggests that Melville was "punctuating for cadence" in sentences such as
    "Often I have lain thus, when the fact, that if I laid much longer I would actually freeze to death, would come over me with such overpowering force as to break the icy spell, and starting to my feet, I would endeavour to …"
     
    I would probably refrain from inserting a comma at the end of a restrictive relative clause even when I might pause to help the hearer understand where the clause ends and avoid a garden-path sentence.  
    In a children's story, for example, I might (especially if I were Roald Dahl) write
     "Putting the stick that she had found under her arm, she went on her way."
    but reading it in a bedtime story I would probably say "Putting the stick that she had found, under her arm …"  – to avoid the comment "That's a funny place to find a stick!"
    #21AuthorMikeE (236602) 11 Jun 17, 13:58
    Comment
    I’m really sorry for being a bother but I must ask you to reconsider. The question in #3 (why the comma in “He didn’t run, because he was afraid to move” indicates that the “because”-part is “supplementary or parenthetical”, as opposed to the same sentence without a comma) has not been satisfactorily answered. Also, the answers that have been supplied are contradictory.

    Take HW’s answer in #13, saying that  “He”  didn’t run because he may have carried the neighbour’s sofa (instead of “being afraid to move” in the CMS-example). HW refers back to MikeE’s #9 (saying “MikeE understands”). But MikeE’s sentence, without the comma, was “He didn’t run because he was afraid”, with the implication that “he” had a different reason for running, and that is not at all the same thing. HW’s example implies that “he” did not run in the end whereas MikeE’s example says he did in fact run. So Mike’s “he” has a different reason for running, while HW’s “he” has a different reason for walking slowly. The two examples are not compatible.

    The problem with HW’s sentence is that, when you spell it out, it contains a double negation: he does not {not run} because of A, but because of B. It’s the running that is negated, and it is the causal explanation that is being negated at the same time. Mike’s example only negates the explanation (not ... because) but not the running. Mike knew that he changed the original sentence: “A better example (without the additional semantics that make one meaning unlikely) might be simply ...”
    But that changed sentence (replacing “because he was afraid to move” with “because he was afraid”) does in fact introduce additional semantics. It transforms the original example from “{not X}, because Y” to “X {not because Y} but because Z”. In the Chicago Manual’s example, “he” stays put, in Mike’s demonstration he runs. In the CMS example only the running is negated, in HW’s example both the running and the explanation are negated.

    It’s the negation in the CMS example that is leading us down the garden path (to where the red herrings dwell). If we use a positive sentence such as

    He ran away, because he was afraid versus
    He ran away because he was afraid

    we see that we are back to square one, because that “but” with its alternative “because” has evaporated.

    It is MikeE’s explanation in #1 that seems still valid to me. He used his own sentence from the other thread that triggered earlgreyhey’s question:

    There are many other web pages that review these punctuation patterns, because native speakers have trouble with the rules too

    and explains that the comma expresses a “subordination of information.” The because-clause refers to the main clause as a whole (he said it “explained why there are many web pages”, but I wouldn’t call that an explanation) whereas the sentence without the comma ties the because-clause up with “review these punctuation patterns”: They review those patterns for a reason, and that reason is part of the core information.


    Finally, back to the CMS example once again. He didn’t run, because he was afraid to move supplies the core information that “he didn’t run” and supplements it with the reason for his staying where he was. It’s an addition that was not specifically asked for, it’s surplus, an afterthought. He didn’t run because he was afraid to move (no comma) presents the reason for not running as its core information. It’s a typical answer to a why-question (hence my feeble attempt in #8 – “why did he do X” vs. “what did he do”). The difference in meaning, subtle as it may be, is part of the theme/rheme-structure of communication. The theme is what is known, the rheme is the core information, the new information you choose to contribute. The rheme is also what you ask for when your knowledge of a situation is incomplete. The fact that “he didn’t run” is the core information of the sentence with a comma, and the reason why he didn't is the core information for the sentence without it. The because-part of the sentence with the comma is additional information that was not specifically asked for and can become the theme of the next utterance in a dialogue.

    Sorry it became so technical. Please ask if you think that this or that point deserves clarification; I’ll try to do my best and write another 5 pages.(-:

    If escoville could now reveal how intonation and stress work together to indicate the difference in meaning for which, in written language, the comma stands ...
    #22Author sebastianW (382026) 12 Jun 17, 22:48
    Comment
    Re #22.

    Sebastian, I suspect that you have not intended to address any of your questions to me; but since you have referred to me and my earlier comments, I'll take the opportunity to respond.

    The problem with HW’s sentence is that, when you spell it out, it contains a double negation: he does not {not run} because of A, but because of B. It’s the running that is negated, and it is the causal explanation that is being negated at the same time.

    To the extent I understand what you mean, I don't agree. My example in #13 does not constitute a double negative. (And if a "double negation" is something different, I can't see how it affects the point I have made here.) #13 simply illustrates what I meant in #4. I see nothing amiss in either #4 or #13.

    PS
    It’s the negation in the CMS example that is leading us down the garden path . . .. If we use a positive sentence such as

    He ran away, because he was afraid versus
    He ran away because he was afraid

    I agree that those sentences present a different case. Indeed, I see absolutely no reason for a comma in that sentence. But that "positive sentence" has no bearing on the issue we have been addressing (#4, for example).
    #23AuthorHappyWarrior (964133) 13 Jun 17, 00:21
    Comment
    "a change in tone group" - escoville, you are always so knowledgeable about these fine points of spoken language; I don't even know what to search for to learn more myself. Where could I find out more about this kind of thing, whatever it is called? :)

    He didn't run because he was afraid. He ran because he was happy.
    #24Author CM2DD (236324) 13 Jun 17, 09:13
    Comment
    @#24

    Long time no squeak... The best intro in my opinion (still) is O'Connor and Arnold, Intonation of Colloquial English. Problem is, it is 50 years old, and the actual intonation patterns have changed considerably in that time, and indeed since I wrote my dissertation 20 years later. But for the basic structure, I think what they say is quite valid (and it's readable).
    On the thematic structure of English sentences (which this has to do with), that very unfashionable linguist M.A.K. Halliday is quite readable and probably the most intelligent.
    (Send me a PM.)
    #25Author escoville (237761) 13 Jun 17, 10:31
    Comment
    Thanks. Just found some MP3s from the first book, delightful!

    #26Author CM2DD (236324) 13 Jun 17, 10:56
    Comment
    #22
    "It is MikeE’s explanation in #1 that seems still valid to me. He used his own sentence from the other thread that triggered earlgreyhey’s question:"
     
    Just a slight correction: it was not my own sentence, but that of hm (though I might have linked to the wrong entry). I was in fact referring to hm's comments in related discussion: instead (word order) - #4 ,
    where there are, in fact, two sentences with a comma before because:
     
     (1)  "There are many other web pages that review these punctuation patterns, because native speakers have trouble with the rules too."
    and
      (2) "The Purdue example is imperfect, because some sentence adverbs can actually be used without being set off with commas, like 'therefore.' "
     
    In both these sentences, the because clause is "supplementary" in the sense that it does not affect the truth of the proposition in the main clause, but that is IMO not the whole story.
    In (1) the omission of the comma would "integrate" the because clause into "review these punctuation patterns". As with the negation examples, the comma (or corresponding intonation) can indicate which candidate phrase the because clause is intended to refer to (viz not the prime candidate phrase but the longer phrase that includes it).
    In (2) the comma/pause might be omitted if the intended meaning of because is closer to "in that" or "to the extent that". The writer/speaker might, of course, omit the comma in any case and let the reader guess if that shade of meaning was really intended.
     
    A native speaker can use prosody as a guide to punctuation, and in both cases I agree with hm's comma, but a non-native speaker is left with the question of what intonation to use. As with relative clauses, though, I assume that a German speaker will usually recognize whether a spoken clause is restrictive or supplementary, and often distinguish prosodically between the two in German, even though German uses a comma in both cases.
    #27AuthorMikeE (236602) 13 Jun 17, 13:21
    Comment
    commas preceding because correct ?

    OT: What is definitely incorrect here is the space before the question mark! (And, in spite of how often one sees it in German, I'm quite certain that NGSs have said that it doesn't belong in German texts, either.)
    #28Author hbberlin (420040) 13 Jun 17, 16:15
    Comment
    #27: Oh, I'm sorry, apologies to the copyright holder, I must have misread.

    I agree with everything you say, including your assumption about German intonation in the last paragraph..

    In fact, I only wanted to make clear that regarding the CMS example (He didn't run, because he was afraid to move) the answer "he ran for some other reason" is not valid as an explanation of the difference between the given sentence and the same sentence without the comma. The CMS sentence unequivocally says that "he" -- whoever he is -- did not run, and that is true whether the sentence contains a comma or not. And it says that "he" was "afraid to move". Therefore, to say that "he" had to carry his neighbour's furniture or something does not contribute anything to our understanding of how the sentence without the comma can mean something different compared with the same sentence that does contain the comma.

    It really seems that the Chicago Manual could have chosen a better example.

    @25: Thanks for your recommendations. You were talking to CM2DD but I overheard you and secretly took notes.


    @HW #23: Of course you disagree -- "to the extent [you] could understand what meant". I'm sorry if I couldn't make myself understood. I have problems with MikeE's contributions at times because he tends to use grammatical terms I'm not familiar with, so I know what you mean. Unless you mean to say that my English is not "fine and proper" English which you cherish so much, in which case I'm grateful for any corrections.

    Just one point, the negation. To illustrate what I mean let's take a synonym for doesn't run that is not a negation such as a form of "to walk slowly". Your example becomes:

    He did not {walk slowly} because he was afraid to move. He did {walk slowly} because he carried his neighbor's couch ...

    Now we substitute the appropriate form of not running for walking slowly:

    He did not {not run} because he was afraid to move. He did {not run} because he carried his neighbor's couch ...

    In terms of semantics, you negate the verb run and at the same time negate the because-clause in it's entirety: not because ... , but. That was my point, unimportant as it is. The sentence you discussed is simply not the sentence in question. The sentence in question affirms -- as I have pointed out in other words further above -- that a) he did not run and b) that the reason for this was that he was afraid to move. The question was how a comma, not a couch, could change its meaning.

    #29Author sebastianW (382026) 14 Jun 17, 19:55
    Comment
    Unless you mean to say that my English is not "fine and proper" English which you cherish so much, in which case I'm grateful for any corrections.

    No, I was not referring to your ability with the English language, which ability is very good indeed.

    That said, I still have no idea what you are talking about (regarding points I have made in this thread).

    I will add that your sarcasm is both unnecessary and unseemly ("'fine and proper' English which you cherish so much.") You seem to think that my understanding of English must be deficient if it happens to disagree with yours.
    #30AuthorHappyWarrior (964133) 14 Jun 17, 20:01
    Comment
    HappyWarrior, I'm sorry, I rest my case. I'm really trying to make myself understood, and when I meet with blank stares that is not very pleasant at all as it gives rise to very unpleasant questions such as "is it me? Is my thinking muddled? Did I not say what I meant to say? Or did I express it incorrectly?"

    In such an unpleasant situation a tiny bit of sarcasm should, I think, be allowed. No, I don't think your English is deficient because it doesn't agree with mine. I have come to think, however, that your understanding of English is of a somewhat rare and subjective variety because it frequently seems to disagree with your countrymen's. I'll certainly keep my eyes and ears open.
    #31Author sebastianW (382026) 15 Jun 17, 03:21
    Comment
    your understanding of English is of a somewhat rare and subjective variety because it frequently seems to disagree with your countrymen's.

    And on what do you base that conclusion? I have been successfully "understanding" English for several decades now; so I don't think I need to defer to your analysis of whether or not I correctly understand English.

    You say my English is "rare and subjective"? How could you have basis for such a statement? I assume you have polled 300 million Americans to get their opinion on this particular issue?

    Disagree if you want to, but please stop the sarcasm.
    #32AuthorHappyWarrior (964133) 15 Jun 17, 05:50
    Comment
    I may be sorry for venturing into this morass, but I wanted to pick up on one point sebastianW made about double negation. There is a concept I've read about (probably initially in Garner) called linguistic raising, in which something, in this case a negation, is raised from a subordinate part of the sentence to the main part. In the case of the controversial sentence, he didn't run because he was afraid, the negation has been "raised" so that it seems that running is being negated when the negation actually logically belongs "lower" in the sentence. Sorry if this is hard to follow. I'm not a linguist and there are probably other and better ways to explain the phenomenon. To the extent I can understand it, the change would be:

    he didn't run because he was afraid (but for some other reason) ==> he ran, not because he was afraid (but for some other reason.)


    If I've missed the point (or the boat), please just ignore this post. :) But even if linguistic raising doesn't apply in this situation, I'd be interested in hearing if anyone has any pointers to other discussions of the topic. PM is fine.


    (#32 wasn't there while I was typing in my entry. I'm very slow)
    #33Author patman2 (527865) 15 Jun 17, 06:22
    Comment
    #3
    He didn't run, because he was afraid to move.
    "To be honest, I don't see what is supplementary of parenthetical about stating that reason"
     
    This is a general point, not just related to EarlGreyHey's comment, but it seems like a good place to address the issue.
     
    There may be some confusion about terms like supplementary, or non-restrictive, or non-defining – as opposed to integrated, restrictive, or defining – when referring to dependent clauses (particularly, but not only, relative clauses). To me, this represents another example of native speakers' intuition easily recognizing a difference that is difficult to express in terms of prescriptive rules.
    This is why I earlier wrote '"supplementary" in the sense that it does not affect the truth of the proposition in the main clause'. I think that is the intended meaning when style guides etc. talk of dependent clauses being "essential to the meaning". I sometimes express it myself that way, to avoid sounding weird by using concepts like "truth" and "proposition" (though IMO these are the natural concepts of intuitive language competence, also important for concepts like modality).
    Clearly, a because clause is often essential to the meaning of the sentence in that it may even be the main purpose of the sentence and is not parenthetical.  
    The point about the integrated / "restrictive" He didn't run because he was afraid to move is that the addition of the because clause potentially alters the truth of the preceding "He didn't run …'.
    However, it does not logically mean that the preceding proposition is necessarily untrue – though it may imply that (or the reader may infer it): "I will give 100 dollars to anyone who can explain this clearly" merely suggests that I will not give 100 dollars to anyone else.
    #34AuthorMikeE (236602) 15 Jun 17, 13:22
    Comment
    A recent National Public Radio broadcast played a clip from Christopher Plummer playing Kaiser Wilhelm in "The Exception". I consider his reading of the following line inexcusable. "I was stabbed, -- [long pause] in the back!".
    Stab in the back is an expression in English, of course, as it is in the original German.


    #35Author Jurist (US) (804041) 26 Jun 17, 21:53
    Comment
    Stab in the back is an expression in English, of course, as it is in the original German.

    How is that? "Stab in the back" is English, of course, but what is the German equivalent that you seem to be referring to? And why would Plummer's long pause be so inexcusable?
    #36Author dude (253248) 26 Jun 17, 22:10
    Comment
    #36 -The German equivalent is "Dolchstoß von hinten" and it refers to the Dolchstoßlegende, which is essentially an allusion to the Nibelungensage about the supposedly invincible Siegfried, who is nevertheless killed by his treacherous "friend" Hagen von Tronje. In the context of the end of the First World War, it was applied to the German Army, which, as German propaganda had it, had never been in danger of losing the war. But eventually, according to right-wing extremists, it was "stabbed in the back" by pacifists, defeatists and workers of the arms industry on strike, who supposedly were the only ones to be considered responsible for the German defeat.
    #37Author EarlGreyHey (1188618) 27 Jun 17, 01:13
    Comment
    Yes, of course. And putting a big pause after I was stabbed removes the stab-in-the-back parallel to Dolchstoß.
    #38Author Jurist (US) (804041) 27 Jun 17, 01:15
    Comment
    Yes, of course? You wait until someone offers an explanation three hours after I asked the question and then chime in two minutes later with "yes, of course"? Like you knew all along? Gimmie a break!

    and maybe Plummer just paused for theatrical effect. Dolchstoß is, after all, a single word, so it doesn't offer the same dramatic parallel, imo.
    #39Author dude (253248) 27 Jun 17, 01:35
    Comment
    Dude, everyone but you reading this forum knows this.


    In any case, being stabbed in the back is not a simple variations, no matter how dramatic, on being stabbed, say, in the chest. It a term of art, at least in German history.
    #40Author Jurist (US) (804041) 27 Jun 17, 01:53
    Comment
    I don't think you know what I know - or don't know.
    #41Author dude (253248) 27 Jun 17, 01:55
    Comment
    #38, #39 - I also think that the pause is meaningful because it emphasizes the treacherous nature of the act:
    It stresses the cowardice of those who attacked from the back, something that decent soldiers would not do.
    #42Author EarlGreyHey (1188618) 27 Jun 17, 01:57
    Comment
    Well, as a native speaker of English, I don't see it that way. It's not "I was stabbed (Hohum), --- IN THE BACK!, which would indeed be a way to emphasize the physical battlefield or barroom case. Rather, it's I WAS STABBED-IN-THE-BACK!

    The pause after stabbed makes it the main verb, with the rest adding some sort of dramatic emphasis. But I see stabbed in the back as some sort of verb phrase with a different and more figurative meaning. (Note also, as dude says, that the English phrase is the translation of the single German word.)

    OT: I prefer to reply to posters who fill in their language profiles and post in their best language. And maybe activate PMs.
    #43Author Jurist (US) (804041) 27 Jun 17, 02:03
    Comment
    Wish we all had such high standards. :-)
    #44Author dude (253248) 27 Jun 17, 02:13
    Comment
    #28 Definitiv. Bedauerlicherweise scheint das immer häufiger vorzukommen. Zunächst dachte ich, daß es von Deutschen mit Franz. als Fremdsprache versehentlich ins Deutsche übernommen wurde. Aber ich sehe es auch bei immer mehr Deutschen, die überhaupt keinen Bezug zum Französischen haben.
    #45Author Selima (107) 27 Jun 17, 06:23
    Comment
    (Note also, as dude says, that the English phrase is the translation of the single German word.)

    Nein, das stimmt nicht. "Dolchstoß" ist ein ganz normales deutsches Kompositum ohne politischen Bezug. Den bekommt es erst durch die Verbindung "Dolchstoßlegende". Wobei "Legende" erst die spätere Variante ist (als man wusste, dass es sich um eine Verschwörungstheorie handelte). Zunächst wurden Formulierungen wie "Dolchstoß in den Rücken" (der Frontsoldaten) oder "von hinten erdolcht" verwendet. ("Dolchstoß von hinten" kommt mir sprachlich ungelenk und historisch nicht belegt vor.)

    Ich frage mich allerdings, was die Pause nach "stabbed ..." mit dem Thema dieser Diskussion zu tun hat. Da kann Selimas verspäteter Bezug auf die "Pause" vor dem Fragezeichen auch nicht mehr verwundern. Seltsam, seltsam. Vielleicht gebe ich auch noch eine verspätete Antwort. By the way: apologies to HappyWarrior and everybody else concerned -- I only just noticed that I messed up the italics in the last part of #29. (I hate the way the italics work in the new editing process; just terrible and a time-consuming stumbling block for anything in excess of five lines!)
    #46Author sebastianW (382026) 28 Jun 17, 00:06
    Comment
    Nichts, sebastianW, LEO-Diskussionen werden halt recht schnell multithematisch. Das eigentliche (!) Thema des Fadens ist übrigens die Zeichensetzung vor "because" :-)
    #47Author Selima (107) 28 Jun 17, 07:00
    Comment
    #35,36,46 "original German"

    If it is true that Ludendorff got the phrase from General Malcom, I suppose the English would be the "original".

    Plummer's pause before "in the back" sounds odd to me, too.
    To me, "They stabbed me in the back", as a single unit, is a figurative expression meaning something like "I was betrayed by people I trusted".
    I would not immediately think of "They stabbed me" as a figurative expression.

    Listening to the recording (2:04-2:40), I suspect Plummer was trying to reproduce the speech patterns of someone who has had too much to drink and is short of breath, also pausing to bang on the table. He also puts a break in the middle of "My navy | betrayed me."

    #46 "Ich frage mich allerdings, was die Pause nach "stabbed ..." mit dem Thema dieser Diskussion zu tun hat. "

    The thread is about the rules that properly apply to the use of commas in written English -- and by extension the spoken equivalent of pauses (or separation into tone groups).

    The pair "I was stabbed, in the back" / "I was stabbed in the back" is a similar example of the comma/pause normally being used to indicate that the following phrase is supplementary, rather than being integrated with the immediately preceding phrase.
    #48AuthorMikeE (236602) 28 Jun 17, 07:03
     
  •  
  •  
  •  
  •  
  •  
  
 
 
 
 
 ­ automatisch zu ­ ­ umgewandelt