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    pronunciation: dʒ vs. ʥ (English budget vs. German Budget)

    Topic

    pronunciation: dʒ vs. ʥ (English budget vs. German Budget)

    Comment
    I assumed that the dg sound in German Budget was the same as in English budget.

    Here's what Dictionary.com shows for the pronunciation of English budget: /ˈbʌdʒ ɪt/ .


    That's about what I expected. But Wordreference shows this pronunciation for German Budget:  [byˈʥeː].


    I'm not familiar with the sound ʥ. How is it different from dʒ ? I've checked the entry in the English Wikipedia, but I still can't figure it out. There are also Wikipedia entries for ʑ and ʒ, but I'm still puzzled.

    Is the middle consonant of German Budget really different from English budget ?



    Author eric (new york) (63613) 18 Jun 17, 04:06
    Comment
    I am not a linguist. As I am sitting here, repeating "budget" in the American English and Northern German pronunciations used by me, I do not hear a difference. Both German and English use the same sound, known to me as dʒ. I would question the correctness of the information in Wordreference regarding the German pronunciation.
    #1Author Norbert Juffa (236158) 18 Jun 17, 04:20
    Comment
    deutsch Budget
    [by'dʒeː] -> Online-Duden, Pons, Collins, Muret-Sanders

    #2Author MiMo (236780) 18 Jun 17, 05:51
    Comment
    The transcription of the German word in OP is a non-phonemic transcription. The symbol [ʥ] represents a more palatalized consonant, but I think no one would claim that /ʥ/ or the second element of it was a phoneme of German. In a phonemic transcription, there would be no need to distinguish it from [dʒ]. The purpose is to assert that the German sound is more palatalized than the English one (whether this is true, I'm not sure). However, as a rule dictionaries give phonemic transcriptions (and should then indicate separately how the phonemes are pronounced).

    #3Author escoville (237761) 18 Jun 17, 09:47
    Comment
    In layman's terms, what is the difference between a phonemic and a non-phonemic transcription? I thought I had a reasonable idea what phonemes are, but now I am not so sure any more since I don't see how they play into this particular question.
    #4Author Norbert Juffa (236158) 18 Jun 17, 09:58
    Comment
    Take a simple example. There is only one /l/ phoneme in English, but in RP (at least) there are two major varieties (velarized ('dark') and non-velarized ('clear')) plus other distinctions (voiced and voiceless). However, because all these differences are predictable from context, a phonemic transcription would render them all the same: /l/. A non-phonemic (i.e. phonetic) transcription would distinguish the varieties in more or less detail as the occasion demanded.
    In the present case, there's no certainly phonemic distinction between the two sounds in German, and I doubt they both occur anyway. This being the case, the normal practice would be to use the symbol which is most widely used internationally, and indicate (if required, and if true) that the German sound is more palatalized than the English one. (I notice that the Wordreference transcription is given in square brackets, which by convention indicates a phonetic, not a phonemic, transcription.)
    #5Author escoville (237761) 18 Jun 17, 10:29
    Comment
    Ich bin kein Linguist und kann das vermutlich nicht korrekt beschreiben. Für mich klingt das englische "dsch" ein bißchen härter als das deutsche:
    ...
    was vielleicht mit den beiden Vokalen zusammenhängen könnte: im engl. ein a und kurzes e, im Dt., dem Frz. folgend, ein ü und ein langes e
    #7Author Selima (107) 18 Jun 17, 11:52
    Comment
    @#7

    'härter' means different things to different people, but I think I know what you mean. There is less audible friction in the German sound. I think this is what the Wordreference transcription is trying to convey. While the different symbols officially relate to the place of articulation (that's the way the IPA works), the acoustic effect is as you describe.

    There is always a problem of transcription when the sound occurs in borrowed words only, not least (but not only) because the pronunciation is likely to be unstable.
    #8Author escoville (237761) 18 Jun 17, 12:22
    Comment
    Thanks, particularly escoville.
    #9Author eric (new york) (63613) 18 Jun 17, 15:57
     
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