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    word order - including an information of place

    Topic

    word order - including an information of place

    Comment

    Good Morning @ all!


    I have a question concerning the word order.

    Since I teach my students a strict word order (subject - verb - object) and tell them to think of the subject when putting an information of place at the first position of a sentence (In the corner there is a comfortable couch.), I am really suprised to read more and more texts where the subject (here: there) is left out.


    So maybe you can help me clarifying the issue whether

    1. In the corner there is a comfortable couch.
    2. In the corner there is a comfortable couch.

    are both correct. (It would be interesting to know whether version 2 is OK in informal/spoken English.)


    Thanks a lot!


    AuthorSuney (339175) 09 Jul 18, 08:40
    Comment

    Both versions (1 and 2) are fine. Of course, that is not the only right order. You could say, "A comfortable couch is in the corner."


    Also, please note that your "when putting an information of place at the first position of a sentence" is awkward (at best). For example, it is not "an information."

    #1AuthorHappyWarrior (964133) 09 Jul 18, 08:58
    Comment

    thanks for your answer and the correction .... Of course, it's a "piece of information" :o)

    #2AuthorSuney (339175) 09 Jul 18, 09:03
    Comment

    ... (In the corner there is a comfortable couch.), I am really suprised to read more and more texts where the subject (here: there) is left out.


    It can't be correct to describe "there" as the subject. I would say it's just part of a fixed phrase, "there is", but perhaps someone else can explain it better.

    #3AuthorHecuba - UK (250280) 09 Jul 18, 10:25
    Comment

    I believe the subject is the couch, while "is" is the verb and the corner is the...err...I did fail that 7th grade grammar test, to be fair...what's the corner in this case?


    Also, to my ears "In the corner is a comfortable couch" sounds kinda wrong, although I'm also pretty sure that the sentence is fine. You could also replace "is" with "stands" and it would work. Just doesn't sound too good, somehow. Maybe just in written form. Spoken I believe it would be totally fine when you're trying to describe the interiors of a room to somebody else, for instance. "In the corner stands a comfy couch and next to it a vintage table with a green table cloth."

    #4Author Nixda (455581) 09 Jul 18, 10:41
    Comment

    I wouldn't call "there" the subject of the sentence, and I find the suggested sentences to be more German-oriented (inverted word order) than the "standard" English S+V+* word order. In both cases, there is a prepositional phrase before what is in standard word order the "first part" of the sentence. (The two sentences in the OP aren't necessarily incorrect, although I wouldn't expect to find them standing by themselves without having a reason for inverting the word order, such as Nixda has given in #4 with the description of a room.)


    For me, "couch" remains the subject of the sentence. In its simplest form, the sentence would read "a couch is in the corner."


    I'm not the best at terms in grammar, but M-W has this to say about "there" as used in this way:


    there

    pronoun


    #5Author hbberlin (420040) 09 Jul 18, 11:06
    Comment

    It should also be


    So maybe you can help me clarifying whether

    #6Author Gibson (418762) 09 Jul 18, 12:29
    Comment

    #5 there

    pronoun (M-W)


    I've never seen "there" classified as a pronoun before, but I suppose this is reasonable if it is regarded as a placeholder for the noun that is the subject. (Of course M-W also has it as an adverb.)


    But as you (Suney) have observed, and others have said, an expression of place like "In the corner" can sometimes be followed simply by is, stands, hangs, etc., without "there".

    #7AuthorHecuba - UK (250280) 09 Jul 18, 12:47
    Comment

    I teach my students a strict word order (subject - verb - object)


    In the corner there is a comfortable couch.


    Gerade das ist doch ein Beispiel für eine invertierte Satzstellung. Das Subjekt ist natürlich nicht "there", sondern "a comfortable couch", und das steht in diesem Fall ganz hinten.

    #8Author dirk (236321) 09 Jul 18, 12:50
    Comment

    I would tend to regard

    (1) "In the corner there is a comfortable couch."

    and

    (2) "In the corner is a comfortable couch."

    as two different grammatical constructions.

     

    (1) is an example of an existential clause, where there is a "dummy pronoun".

    (2) is an example of subject–complement inversion.

     

    I am not a teacher, but I suspect it is a good idea to keep quiet initially about the second construction (subject–complement inversion) when teaching English to German native speakers – because the construction is very restricted in English and much more common in German.

     

    However, I would say it is the standard construction, for instance, when describing pictures.

     

    Rather than being simply a matter of word order, I would say it is a matter of "information packaging" or "thematic structure": the inversion is used (restrictedly) when the grammatical complement (consisting of a prepositional phrase) is the topic of the clause and the subject represents the information being imparted about that topic.

    So, when describing a picture, you can answer the implicit questions "what is in the foreground?"etc.):

    In the foreground is ...; in the background is ...).

     

    The construction can also be used with verbs like stand or lie, which incidentally express orientation."

     

    The construction is probably not appropriate if the verb contains significant novel information (in addition to existence and orientation); so (when describing a picture or scene) you can say

    "At the desk sits a man."

    "On the desk is a book. "

    "Beside the desk stands a grandfather clock. "

    "On the wall hangs a picture of a stag."

    but you would not say

    * "At the desk reads a man."

    * "On the desk crawls an ant."

     

    There are however examples of such inversion with verbs other than is, stand, etc. where it is difficult to specify what verbs are allowed:

     

    "... two hours later came the news that they had been found alive."

    This does not work if came is replaced by arrived.

     

    I would say inversion is fairly formal and possibly used more widely in literary texts:

    "At the entrance stood an empty cart."

    "To the left lay darkness...

    "At its bottom ran a hurrying stream "

    #9AuthorMikeE (236602) 09 Jul 18, 12:51
    Comment

    RE #7: (Of course M-W also has it as an adverb.)

    Yes, it's one of those "multipurpose words, but their definition and examples for "there" as a pronoun fit this situation most closely.


    RE #9: Agree. In a sense, the inverted word order is a sort of "false friend" -- however, it's not incorrect per se in English, but we use it much less often than in German. I agree that German-speakers learning English should first master the standard S-V-(O) word order in English before doing a bunch with inverted word order.

    It's for similar reasons that I believe that the inverted word is used far too often in translations done by NESs as well.

    #10Author hbberlin (420040) 09 Jul 18, 13:31
    Comment

    In Swedish, the "there" in the first post would be an impersonal pronoun. I'm not sure whether they exist in English, but I would imagine so.

    #11Author Be_Ge (845437) 09 Jul 18, 13:42
    Comment

    #10 ... but their definition and examples for "there" as a pronoun fit this situation most closely.


    I know. I was trying to make it clear that I wasn't accusing M-W of describing "there" only or mainly as a pronoun.

    #12AuthorHecuba - UK (250280) 09 Jul 18, 21:13
    Comment

    thx a lot!

    I conclude that it is not common in English-speaking countries to start a sentence with an indication of place followed by a verb.


    #13AuthorSuney (339175) 12 Jul 18, 09:48
    Comment
    I would say, "In *that* corner is a comfortable couch", or in this case "In the corner *over* there is a comfortable couch" and if it sounds kinda funny. Instead, you could rearrange the sentence. "(over/in) there in the/that corner is a comfortable couch".

    I'd suggest you to imagine being in the situation, where you have to describe a picture of a room to a friend.
    "Look, in the corner over there is a comfortable looking couch". It's easier to remember this way
    #14Author g3n3sis08 (1204513) 21 Oct 18, 11:08
    Comment

    I was on holiday when this thread was started, but here's my pennyworth.


    1) You must distinguish between 'there' as an adverb of place, and 'there' as a placeholder for the grammatical subject. In the OP sentence, 'there' has nothing (or very little) to do with place.

    2) What the subject of a sentence is depends on how you define 'subject' (and that is really not easy without getting into circularities). However, one might note that 'there' in expressions like 'There is a tree outside my window' partakes of some of the characteristics of a subject. First, its position in the sentence, but also: one normally says that in English, questions are formed by inverting subject and auxiliary verb (counting 'be' as an auxiliary and supplying 'do' if there is no other). But the question form of the above sentence (and the question tag) treats 'there' as the subject for this purpose: 'Is there a tree outside my room?' or 'There's a tree outside my room, isn't there?'

    #15Author escoville (237761) 21 Oct 18, 12:35
     
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