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cloak-and-dagger film

Topic		cloak-and-dagger film
Comment		Hello, there's an argument currently going on on Wikipedia regarding the article "cloak-and-dagger film", which says that there's a movie genre of that name and that such films are historical movies about musceteers and sorts. I doubt that 1. there is such a genre of that name at all 2. a native speaker would understand "cloak-and-dagger film" as a film about spies and not musceteers. See here for the article and here for the deletion discussion. Has anyone here ever heard of such a genre? And if so, what do you believe it is? Modern times spies or historical musceteers? Please reply only in English, as I want to link to this discussion in the Wikipedia deletion debate.
Author		H005	11 Feb 07, 21:12

#1	Author	Norbert Juffa (236158)	11 Feb 07, 21:36
Comment		Strictly from the definition of the word, it seems it could be either. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com Main Entry: cloak-and-dagger Function: adjective 1 a : dealing in intrigue and action of a romantic and melodramatic kind usually with characters in a colorful historical setting and involving espionage, duels, pursuit, and rescue b : resembling or suggesting such intrigue or action 2 : concerned with espionage; specifically : engaged in or connected with undercover activities of secret agents of a national intelligence or counterintelligence service behind enemy lines

#2	Author	Benson (42314)	11 Feb 07, 23:47
Comment		I definitely think "spies" [or spylike activity] when I hear "cloak and dagger". "Musketeers" would never have occurred to me (anyway, wouldn't that be "cloak and musket"?).

#3	Author	Benson (42314)	11 Feb 07, 23:54
Comment		Hm...I should add that, having taken the time to Google a bit, there does seem to be some support out there for "cloak-and-dagger film" as a historical, swashbuckling genre. Given that the film industry has a vocabulary of its own, this seems entirely possible to me. Now I'm curious as to which usage originated first...

#4	Author	Nicky	12 Feb 07, 00:22
Comment		My first thought was 'cloak-and-dagger-film = Mantel-und-Degen- Film. A film in a historical setting with gallant heroes, duels, beautiful women, treacherous villains and so on ... So far I have never had the association with espionage, but I live and learn.;-)

#5	Author	holger (236115)	12 Feb 07, 00:33
Comment		Cloak and Dagger (1946) Directed by Fritz Lang Genre: Romance / Adventure / Thriller / War (more) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038417/ Cloak & Dagger (1984) Directed by Richard Franklin Genre: Action / Family / Adventure / Crime / Thriller / Mystery (more) Cloak and Dagger Fiction An Annotated Guide to Spy Thrillers http://www.greenwood.com/catalog/SKL%252f.aspx

#6	Author	Dunfermline	12 Feb 07, 02:44
Comment		I am on tricky ground here, but wouldn't it be helpful to make a difference between a cloak-and-dagger and a cloak-drama? Imho the first describes a tale of treachery with mischevious villains being challenged by chivalrous heroes before fire arms were invented(thus I support Nicky's posting) The latter I would say - as has been posted - is a drama of espionage, clandestine visits and surreptitiously placed evidence.

#7	Author	Mattes (236368)	12 Feb 07, 10:05
Comment		Da hatten wir schon mindestens eine Diskussion zu, ich kann nur noch die hier related discussion: cloak and dagger - Mantel und Degen finden, die hier http://www.leo.org/cgi-bin/dict/forum/forum.c...). leider nicht.

#8	Author	Sophil <de> (239990)	12 Feb 07, 12:16
Comment		I think none of the dictionaries relates to fighting, swords and musketeers in any way: cloak-and-dag·ger adjective Definition: full of secrecy: involving secrecy or intrigue, often as part of an espionage operation [Translation of French de cape et d'épée "of cape and sword," symbols of the rank of characters in dramas of intrigue] (Encarta) cloak-and-dagger • adjective involving intrigue and secrecy. (Compact Oxford English Dictionary) cloak-and-dagger One entry found for cloak-and-dagger. Main Entry: cloak-and-dagger Function: adjective : dealing in or suggestive of melodramatic intrigue and action usually involving secret agents and espionage (Merriam-Webster online) cloak-and-dagger adjective describes an exciting story involving secrecy and mystery, often about spies, or something which makes you think of this: I'm tired of all these cloak-and-dagger (= secretive) meetings - let's discuss the issues openly. cloak-and-dagger ADJECTIVE:Marked by melodramatic intrigue and often by espionage. (American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language) Also, I do not think one can argue that there is a movie genre of that name. Even if such films are sometimes named "cloak-and-dagger film", this does not justify marking it as a genre of its own. You can make up a genre about almost everything that appeared in a movie a couple of times. This is just as if I said there's a genre "robots film" just because there are several films starring robots.

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