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    my husband and I / me

    Comment
    Hi, could anyone please help me with this... When do I use "s.o. and I" and when "s.o. and me"? Like in "... last week, my husband and I went to Spain...BUT...The only two peolpe in the bar were you and me." It both sounds right and I tend to use "s.o. and me" more often, but there has to be a decent regulation on when to use which. Thanks a million for your help.
    Authorannesbay (486773) 14 Oct 08, 08:46
    Comment
    Genau wie in der deutschen Sprache gibt es in der englischen das "Ich" und das "mir/mich". Wenn Du also mit Deinem Mann in einer bist, sagst Du da dann "dort waren mein Mann und mich" oder "ich"? Genauso ist es auf englisch: "my husband and I. "

    Das war der leichte Teil. Kompliziert wird es dadurch, dass in der englischen Umgangssprache das "me" (my husband and me) weite Akzeptanz gefunden hat, eine so weite, daß man das "me" heutzutage öfter als das weiterhin korrekte "I" hört. Es ist schon so weit, daß manchmal das korrekt "I" als altmodisch oder elitär empfunden wird. Sprich also, wie Du willst, aber schreibe korrekt "I".
    #1AuthorWerner (236488) 14 Oct 08, 09:15
    Comment
    The problem is with 'me' or 'I' and it simply depends on whether
    the word is in the nominative or the accusative,but watch when the verb 'to be' is used for then it is grammatically correct always to use the nominative 'I'. Your examples are all right and in the case of 'The only two in the bar were you and 'me''is acceptable because in practice it is most commonly used.However the verb 'to be' takes the same case after as it does before,in short it requires the nominative 'I',so you have
    the grammatically correct 'The only two in the bar were you and 'I'.
    You and I had a drink and a meal in the bar and there 'was' no one else there but you and I/me.The waiter gave you and me(accusative) separate bills.
    You will often hear 'me/him/her' used instead of the grammatically correct 'I/he/she.
    #2AuthorJGMcI14 Oct 08, 09:35
    Comment
    @ANNSBAY ..I notice you say your English is that as used in Ireland,so you will hear,especially in Northern Ireland, 'me' used as often as I (except when used alone) I went into the bar. Him an' me went into the bar.
    #3AuthorJGMcI14 Oct 08, 09:52
    Comment
    An Irishman told me the following joke:

    An English teacher dies and knocks on heaven's door. St Peter asks: "Who's there?" The teacher answers: "It is I!" "Oh no," St Peter sighs, "not another English teacher!"
    #4AuthorSumako (240638) 14 Oct 08, 10:06
    Comment
    As JGMcl has mentioned, there is also a regional element to this. In Celtic countries especially (Ireland, Wales, Scotland), the 'my husband and' variant is quite simply not used in everyday conversation. It is seen as 'posh', and much worse, it is seen as 'English' English, and we don't want to talk like the English, do we.

    Sumako's joke is interesting: what do English teachers and other semi-educated creatures do, knowing that 'my husband and I' is unacceptable im Volksmund but 'my husband and me' is technically wrong? We avoid the issue and use 'myself' instead. 'My husband and myself'. the Irish would say 'me husband and meself'.

    I actually don't agree that 'my husband and I' is the only 'grammatically correct' solution. It's all part of the attempt made in the 19th century to foist Latin grammar onto the language. I believe before that everybody would have spoken like the modern Celtic variation. 'Me' frequently - I wouldn't want to claim always - functions like the French 'moi' rather than the German 'mich', something that I think a lot of German speakers of English are reluctant to accept.
    #5Author yackydar (264012) 14 Oct 08, 10:31
    Comment
    Thanks a lot and yes, I admit, I am teaching - though I couldn't have said "It's I", it just sounds so wrong! For me it's a little clearer now (thanks again) and I guess I will tell my students the joke and the grammar facts and the exceptions and the regional differences and let them decide, how they want to deal with all that information. The problem is that it wouldn't matter at all as long as everything else they said made perfect sense... Arrogant input, I know!
    #6Authorannesbay14 Oct 08, 12:09
    Comment
    I agee with yackadar's last paragraph in #5. Here is what others have to say on this topic:

    It is I or It is me?
    "Instead of the old choice between right and wrong we are now choosing a style; it is a choice that is much closer to the reality of usage than the old one way. [. . .] Clearly, both the it is I and it's me patterns are in reputable use and have been for a considerable time. It is I tends to be used in more formal or more stuffy situations; it's me predominates in real and fictional speech and in a more relaxed writing style" (Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage).


    It's her or It's she?
    "In all but the most formal circumstances, it's OK to use It is me, That's him, It's her, and similar constructions, instead of the technically correct but stuffier It is I, That's he, and It's she" (O'Conner, Woe Is I 186)
    .
    http://www.drgrammar.org/faqs/#73

    Fowler says: "me is technically wrong in It wasn't me etc.;
    but the phrase being of its very nature colloquial, such a lapse is
    of no importance".

    The rule for what he and others consider technically right is
    *not* (as is commonly misstated) that the nominative should *always*
    be used after "to be". Rather, it is that "to be" should link two
    noun phrases of the same case, whether this be nominative or
    accusative:

    I believe that he is I. Who do you believe that he is?
    I believe him to be me. Whom do you believe him to be?

    According to the traditional grammar being used here, "to be" is not
    a transitive verb, but a *copulative* verb. When you say that A is
    B, you don't imply that A, by being B, is doing something to B.
    (After all, B is also doing it to A.) Other verbs considered
    copulative are "to become", "to remain", "to seem", and "to look".

    Sometimes in English, though, "to be" does seem to have the
    force of a transitive verb; e.g., in Gelett Burgess's:

    I never saw a Purple Cow,
    I never hope to see one;
    But I can tell you, anyhow,
    I'd rather see than be one.

    The occurrence of "It's me", etc., is no doubt partly due to this
    perceived transitive force. In the French C'est moi, often cited
    as analogous, moi is not in the accusative, but a special form
    known as the "disjunctive", used for emphasis. If etre were a
    transitive verb in French, C'est moi would be Ce m'est.

    In languages such as German and Latin that inflect between the
    nominative and the accusative, B in "A is B" is nominative just like
    A. In English, no nouns and only a few personal pronouns ("I",
    "we", "thou", "he", "she", "they" and "who") inflect between the
    nominative and the accusative. In other words, we've gotten out of
    the habit, for the most part.

    http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxitsme...
    #7AuthorMary nz/a (431018) 14 Oct 08, 12:34
    Comment
    The rest of the last article, for those interested:
    Also, in English we derive meaning from word position, far more
    than one would in Latin, somewhat more than in German, even. In
    those languages, one can rearrange sentences drastically for
    rhetorical or other purposes without confusion (heh) because
    inflections (endings, etc.) tell you how the words relate to one
    another. In English, "The dog ate the cat" and "The cat ate the
    dog" are utterly different in meaning, and if we wish to have the
    former meaning with "cat" prior to "dog" in the sentence, we have to
    say "The cat was eaten by the dog" (change of voice) or "It is the
    cat that the dog ate." In German, one can reverse the meaning by
    inflecting the word (or its article): Der Hund frass die Katze
    and Den Hund frass die Katze reverse the meaning of who ate whom.
    In Latin, things are even more flexible: almost any word order will
    do:
    Feles edit canem
    Feles canem edit
    Canem edit feles
    Canem feles edit
    Edit canem feles
    Edit feles canem
    all mean the same, the choice of word order being made perhaps for
    rhetorical or poetic purpose.

    English is pretty much the opposite of that: hardly any
    inflection, great emphasis on order. As a result, things have
    gotten a little irregular with the personal pronouns. And there's
    uncertainty as to how to use them; the usual rules aren't there,
    because the usual word needs no rules, being the same for nominative
    and accusative.

    The final factor is the traditional use of Latin grammatical
    concepts to teach English grammar. This historical quirk dates to
    the 17th century, and has never quite left us. From this we get the
    Latin-derived rule, which Fowler still acknowledges. And we *do*
    follow that rule to some extent: "Who are they?" (not "Who are
    them?" or "Whom are they?") "We are they!" (in response to the
    preceding) "It is I who am at fault." "That's the man who
    he is."

    But not always. "It is me" is attested since the 16th Century.
    (Speakers who would substitute "me" for "I" in the "It is I who am
    at fault" example would also sacrifice the agreement of person, and
    substitute "is" for "am".)

     
    http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxitsme...

    Note that "it is me" is attested since the 16th century, so this is not a new trend or fashionably lazy habit, as Werner seems to be suggesting in his second paragraph in #1.
    It is the insistence on "it is I" - instead of the natural emphatic form "It is me" - which is actually an artificial concept based on Latin rules, but a lot of older people (say 50+) were taught that this is the only correct form and still insist on it.

    Think about this scenario:
    You are in a crowded shopping mall and somebody whacks you and steals your handbag. You shout for help and a security man appears, forcing the crowd to stay put. "Who was it?" he asked.
    You point to the culprit(s).
    Do you say
    "It was her/him/them!"
    or do you say
    "It was she/he/they!" ?

    And what if you leave out the "It was"?
    "Who was it?" - "Him!" "Her!" "Them!"
    or would you really say "He!" "She!" "They!" ?
    #8AuthorMary nz/a (431018) 14 Oct 08, 14:36
    Comment
    Mary's explanation is great, but probably too technical for many people. Here are some rules that I have derived based on my personal observations (AE). Perhaps others can refine them.

    Rule 1: In colloquial (but substandard) AE), the word "and" controls the accusative case. No one ever says "Me went to the store" or "Him went to the store." Everyone says "I went to the store" and "He went to the store." But when there is a compound subject with "and," some speakers shift from nominative to accusative case: "Me and him went to the store." This is always substandard and should be avoided by non-native speakers, as well as native speakers.

    Rule 2: In colloquial (but nonstandard) AE), the preposition "between" controls the nominative case and overrides rule Rule 1. Many (even well-educated people) say "between he and I" rather than the standard "between him and me." This usage is nonstandard and should be avoided.

    Rule 3: In standard English, the copulative verb "to be" is followed by the accusative case. Thus, virtually everyone says "It is me/us/them/him/her." This is the correct form that should be adopted by non-native speakers; forms using the nominative care are hyper-correct and should be avoided.

    Note that Rule 3 is really derived from the strict word order of English: Subject + Verb + Direct Object. Even though the copulative technically requires nominative case, it is treated as a direct object in the accusative case. Thus while the sentence "The only two in the bar were you and me" represents standard usage, if one reverses the word order so that the pronouns come first, the case changes: "You and I were the only ones in the bar."

    Rule 4: In colloquial (but nonstandard) AE, personal pronouns with -self (e.g., myself, ourselves, yourself, himself) are used in place of nominative and accusative pronouns (e.g., I, me, we, us, you, he, him), especially in the situations governed by Rules 1 and 2 (and sometimes Rule 3). The speaker may recognize that Rules 1 and 2 represent substandard or nonstandard usage, but finds the correct forms too pompous. This usage is nonstandard and should be avoided.

    Rule 5: In standard AE, short answers to questions require the accusative case, but long answers require the correct case. Here are some examples:

    --Who ate the cookies?
    --Me./I did.

    --Who wants to go to the store?
    --Me./I do.

    --Who was at the party.
    --Tom and me./Tom and I were at the party. [But be careful with sentences with the copulative "to be" since the other rules may apply.]

    --Who[m] did the dog bite?
    --Me./It bit me.



    #9Author Sharper (238296) 14 Oct 08, 15:55
    Comment
    You could also remember it like this:
    If it is only you alone what would you say?
    "He gave me the book"
    "I went to the pub"
    So put another person in there but don't change the word for yourself:
    "He gave my friend and me the book"
    "My husband and I (yes!!) went to the pub"
    #10AuthorScout14 Oct 08, 17:10
    Comment
    Ups, habe ich nie richtig bemerkt...

    Dann ist der Songtitel von Alice Cooper "You and Me" schon inkorrekt / ugs.?
    #11AuthorAlice14 Oct 08, 18:48
    Comment
    No it isn't incorrect as there's no context to say whether it should be "you and me" or "you and I."
    #12AuthorScout14 Oct 08, 21:34
    Comment
    And just for you yackydar good night it's time I was in me bed.
    #13AuthorJGMcI15 Oct 08, 00:37
    Comment
    JGMcl: Bejaysus, sure isn't it the late bird y'are...
    #14Author yackydar (264012) 15 Oct 08, 08:21
    Comment
    Sharper's explanation is great, IMO. Just to add onto number 5, however, remember that this also applies to comparative statements:

    You're better than me./You're better than I am.

    My sister plays piano better than her./My sister plays piano better than she does.
    #15AuthorAmerikanerin (396016) 15 Oct 08, 16:21
    Comment
    @Amerikanerin:

    Your rule does not apply to thou and thee, though. (See, I'm a sucker for alliterations.)

    It's holier than thou, not holier than thee.

    Not that this of any everyday relevance. :-)
    #16Authortomtom15 Oct 08, 18:14
    Comment
    Es gibt aber auch das umgekehrte Phänomen:

    http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=7ixKF6acaDE

    Das Grammatikmädchen hat sich dem Thema auch schon angenommen:

    http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3?http:...
    #17Authorjohnnie15 Oct 08, 18:27
    Comment
    I think a much simplified explanation of when to use nominative or accusative in colloquial English would be this:
    Unless there is a verb near the pronoun that is explicitly conjugated for the pronoun, use the accusative.

    It's me / I am it
    You're better than me / You're better than I am
    The only ones there were her and him / He was there and she was too.
    Who did it? Him! / He did it.
    etc.

    Think like "between you and I" or "you and myself" are just plain wrong.
    #18AuthorJobarr (425867) 17 Oct 08, 14:35
    Comment
    Think like -> Things like :)
    #19AuthorJobarr (425867) 17 Oct 08, 14:36
     
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