I disagree. "Taken for granted" usually has a negative flavor, as in "You always take me for granted." Here, too, it tends to emphasize the negative aspect of those times when corruption and nepotism were considered normal.

In your example though dude, "You always take me for granted" the me you take for granted is something positive. You should appreciate me is what the sentence is saying, I am a good thing in your life. So that supports my perhaps poorly worded thesis. I meant the thing taken for granted is always positive, not the meaning of the entire sentence.

If you interpret taken for granted as something being viewed upon as normal, then it would generally be in a negative sense. If I borrow my neighbour's lawn mower without asking he would consider me to be taking things for granted in a negative sense

In your example though dude, "You always take me for granted" the me you take for granted is something positive.

No, Selkie, that's a misunderstanding. The person saying this would use it as a complaint and mean that the other person isn't appreciative enough. :-)

Yes, but your lending the lawnmower is positive, a nice gesture, and should be appreciated.

I see I have phrased the question very badly (perhaps I took the mindreading skills of posters for granted).

I mean: To me, if I take something for granted, it means there is something good in my life (a neighbour who lends me a lawnmower, a husband who loves me, enough to eat) as a normal thing and do not appreciate it as I should. This therefore does not work for corruption, violence, etc. to my mind. Am I wrong?

(edit) dude, that is what I said: The sentence is a complaint, but not about me, but about the taking for granted. The thing being taken for granted is good (at least in the case of you and me, right?)

To me, "to take something/someone for granted" never has a positive aspect because it always implies that it is something we shouldn't do. One shouldn't take things for granted, because ... you can add your own reasons here, but the point is, it's not a positive thing to do.

OK dude, I will try to express myself once more: No, taking for granted is not positive. I agree completely. That is not what I meant. What I meant is that you can only take positive things for granted, not bad things like corruption and global warming. What is your take on that aspect?

Ah, I understand now (duh!). Yes, you can take negative things for granted as well, but I think it does give the whole statement somewhat of a sarcastic flavor. In your case, like I said, it means that both corruption and nepotism were considered par for the course. Mind you, there are places and countries where this is completely normal and no one would bat an eye because of it or consider it a negative thing. So, in the end, I guess it's all relative. :-) (nepotism, relative, get it?)

Okay then...

Selkie, I do get it :)
taken for granted sounds very odd to me in your specific example as well
- something like 'par for the course' works better IMHO as well

And is there some logical addition I can suggest to leo for an alternative to "etwas für selbsverständlich halten" that includes this negative meaning?
Etwas für selbstverständlich halten ist nicht positiv, zumindest nicht in dem meisten Fällen. Wenn ich sage: "Du hälst es für selbstverständlich, dass du meinen Rasenmäher benutzen kannst" kann ich den nölenden Tonfall beim Lesen hören :)
Ich würde es nur als "positive" Aussage ansehen, wenn ich sage: Ich halte es für selbstverständlich, dass die Politiker nicht korrupt sind."

@ dixie:
Die Frage ist nicht: Ist es positiv, etwas für selbstverständlich zu halten?

Die Frage ist: Kann man nur von positiven Dingen sagen, dass man sie für selbstverständlich hält?

Just found the requested German origional in my mailbox:
(Corruption and a bunch of other bad things) gelten als selbstverständlich (in a particular country that is currently at war.)

So it was not "für selbstverständlich halten" as I assumed, but something similar.

The question then arises for me: in German, are only positive things the subject of the negative process, on which we happily seem to universally agree, of "für selbstverständlich halten"?

It actually doesn't sound all that bad to me; to answer the rephrased question, no, I'm not sure I do think only positive things can be taken for granted.

But if you would prefer something else, what about

Corruption and nepotism ...
are considered/seen as unremarkable / perfectly normal
are an accepted/expected part of everyday life
are taken as a matter of course
are a given

I (apparently mistakenly) always took for granted that you can take both good and bad things for granted... and at least in German I wouldn't know a single common expression to express that the "granted" thing would necessarily be positive.

... wracking my brains... wait...

- "sich auf etwas verlassen" (in der Regel verläßt man sich auf positive Dinge, but the grammatical structure is obviously not quite the same)
- ...

Hm, all the others seem to work equally well for positive and negative things. That being said, I find "selbstverständlich" somewhat odd, almost "too" normal... or as if you could count on finding it, like a guarantee. The expression with "gelten" moderates it a bit better, but still... "Normal" sounds a bit simplistic (something that a 7th grader might write) even though not excessive. I'd find "an der Tagesordnung"/"weit verbreitet"/etc. better fitting than either "selbstverständlich" or "normal." Just my tuppence...


BTW, where does "par of the course" come from? "Par" sounds French...?

(offering a "better"... pick up at own expense)

... BTW, the comments on "selbstverständlich" etc. were only meant for this specific context!...

Ms. Mountain Racer, that's "par for the course"

:)

Zum englischen Ausdruck möchte ich mich lieber nicht äußern, aber was den deutschen angeht:

"Etwas für selbstverständlich halten" sagt meiner Meinung nach nichts über das Ding / die Situation aus, die jemand für selbstverständlich hält, sondern darüber, wie derjenige dieses Ding / diese Situation bewertet. Nämlich, dass er es nicht in Frage stellt und somit entweder neutral oder sogar positiv / als richtig bewertet. Sobald jemand sagt "aber man könnte / sollte / müsste doch eigentlich", hält er es meiner Meinung nach nicht mehr für selbstverständlich (höchstens vielleicht für unvermeidlich oder bedauerlicherweise üblich).

Und nachdem es bei persönlichen Einstellungen und kulturellen Werthaltungen nichts gibt, was es nicht gibt, kann der Anlass alles sein, auch Dinge, die man selbst für überhaupt gar nicht selbstverständlich oder eben für negativ hält.

I'm pretty sure "par for the course" is a golf expression, "par" being the number of strokes it's assumed you'll need to complete a hole or a whole course. Unless I've fallen victim to some kind of Volksetymologie.

*smiles*
orf, click on the pretty blue words in #16. There's a hyper-link hidden behind blue writing in text.
:)