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    english Dialects?

    Comment
    Are there dialekts in Englisch that one can compare to German dialects such as Bavarian or Swiss German or Swabian in their understandability to native speakers? What do English dialects looks like in their written forms?
    AuthorMarco10 Mar 09, 14:18
    Comment
    yep, there are different dialekts in the US. I do have friends from all over the US and when I talk to them I hear the difference.

    it´s kinda hard (for me though) to understand people from mississippi, their slang is bad.

    hope this helps,
    corinna
    #1AuthorThe Mrs10 Mar 09, 14:22
    Comment
    There are many English dialects.
    Take a look at some of the links here (some are just stubs, but some, for example "Scouse" and "Estuary English" semm quite good for a start):
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dialects...
    #2Author Dragon (238202) 10 Mar 09, 14:23
    Comment
    Marco,
    kannst du deine Frage etwas präzisieren?

    Dialekte aus welchem Land? Was genau interessiert dich?
    #3AuthorQuestionmark10 Mar 09, 14:24
    Comment
    Jetzt ist mir Questionmark dazwischengekommen, und ich konnte mein "semm" nicht mehr korrigieren, gemeint war natürlich "seem". Und ich schließe mich der Frage an, ob es Marco um AE-Dialekte, BE-Dialekte oder Dialekte allgemein geht.
    #4Author Dragon (238202) 10 Mar 09, 14:26
    Comment
    schon klar dragon :)
    #5AuthorThe Mrs10 Mar 09, 14:27
    Comment
    Under "difficult to understand" I'd have the geordies and the west country at the top of my list.
    :)
    #6Author mykl (442296) 10 Mar 09, 14:30
    Comment
    The one British accent I have real trouble understanding (when spoken at full speed by locals, rather than the 'toned down' version that narrates UK Big Brother) is, as mykl has just mentioned, Geordie, ie the people around Newcastle in the north-east of England. There have been cases of Geordies being subtitled on British TV because they are so incomprehensible to outsiders. At its most extreme it sounds like a foreign language - a mixture between Scots and Danish.

    A Glaswegian can be fairly tricky to understand, as well.
    #7Author yackydar (264012) 10 Mar 09, 15:04
    Comment
    #7
    I just try to read it, in a Irvine Welsh book ....
    #8Authorgotta question10 Mar 09, 15:27
    Comment
    Wie wär's mir einem Dialekt, der irgendwo in der Pampa von West Australia gesprochen wird? :D
    #9Authorm_albi (529145) 10 Mar 09, 15:37
    Comment
    m_albi: Oh ja, ich habe mir mal den Spaß gemacht, bei ABC online die letzte Sendung von "Australia All Over" anzuhören (eine früh-sonntägliche Radiosendung, bei der Leute aus ganz Australien anrufen). Da war einer dabei, bei dem sank mein Hörverständnis schlagartig auf 30% (von üblicherweise so 90%). Ich glaube der kam irgendwo aus dem ländlichen Queensland...

    Die BBC hat übrigens ein eigenes Portal für das Thema Dialekt und Sprache: http://www.bbc.co.uk/voices/
    #10Author GuggstDu (427193) 10 Mar 09, 16:59
    Comment
    @Mykl: Anything we should discuss here, mate?!

    ;-)))))))))))
    #11AuthorNewcastle/UK10 Mar 09, 17:01
    Comment
    English doesn't really have "dialects" in the true sense. (Especally not AE) Swiss German and true "Bavarian", Plattdeutch are true dialects as they could often be considered different languages in their own right. what most people refer to as "dialects" in the English speaking world are actually just accents.

    Tthere have been other threads about the confusion surounding the meaning of dialect, accent and slang.
    #12AuthorPaul11 Mar 09, 02:28
    Comment
    I agree with Paul; please don't confuse a true dialect, which uses partly different vocabulary and grammar, from a regional accent, which mainly only uses different pronunciation.

    If you're talking about true dialects, my understanding is that far fewer have survived in English than in German; most are now only regional accents, though some of those can be quite hard for outsiders to understand.
    #13Author hm -- us (236141) 11 Mar 09, 05:54
    Comment
    #8, uh-oh, Irvine Welsh characters are generally from Edinburgh, not Glasgow, and speak accordingly...
    #14Authorspinatwachtel11 Mar 09, 08:16
    Comment
    Paul is not right here. A dialect is by defintion a regional or social variety of a language distinguished by pronunciation, grammar, or vocabulary, especially a variety of speech differing from the standard literary language or speech pattern of the culture in which it exists: Cockney is a dialect of English.
    An accent however is determined by the regional or social background of the speaker. or it is determined by the phonetic habits of the speaker's native language carried over to his or her use of another language.

    So Cockney is a dialect, so is Geordie, and so on. A dialect is something a German speaks when he speaks English with an accent. A dialect is when a German speaks hard-core Bavarian amongst High German speakers.

    For any further references on accent and dialect, read a book on linguistics.
    #15AuthorPhilologist11 Mar 09, 09:09
    Comment
    Sorry, messed up the sentence here.

    Here again:
    So Cockney is a dialect, so is Geordie, and so on. An accent is something a German speaks when he speaks English with an accent. A dialect is when a German speaks hard-core Bavarian amongst High German speakers.
    #16AuthorPhilologe11 Mar 09, 09:10
    Comment
    I agree fully with Philologist.

    The various dialects in the US have differing grammar as well as vocabulary. Listen to cowboys from Arkansas talk or take a look at the ebonics movement. If you have some trouble understanding some rap or reggae songs or blacks in the US, that is due to the dialect of English they speak, which differs considerable from standard forms of Englih.

    #17Authorziger11 Mar 09, 09:19
    Comment
    Ich stimme dem Philologen zu. Seine Definition stimmt so. Ich beispielsweise spreche Englisch mit dem Dialekt aus Suffolk und natürlich auch mit deutschem Akzent.
    #18AuthorSuffolk-Girl11 Mar 09, 09:20
    Comment
    Die Diskussion gab' es schon mehrfach. Ich halte den Verweis auf reichlich existierende Literatur tatsächlich für zielführend.
    #19Authoramazombi (529086) 11 Mar 09, 16:56
    Comment
    I agree with Philoge too and NOT with Paul, as a native BE speaker I often find myself TOTALLY out of my depth with certain American and Afro-American dialects. Living here in Germany, I have occasionally been unfortunate enough to catch certain 'trashy' American MTV shows such as 'The flavour of love' and I often understand the German subtitles better than the actual English, despite my being a native English speaker.
    #20AuthorJ11 Mar 09, 17:04
    Comment
    Amazing how many unregistered and previously unknown posters suddenly popped out of the woodwork to add fuel to an argument. This has been happening quite a bit lately, so it doesn't necessarily mean we should take such posts seriously.

    No one is saying there aren't any dialects in English; black American English is certainly one. And there are certainly vestiges of dialect in many strong regional accents. Terms like 'dialect' and 'accent' are not absolutes, but descriptive definitions best understood along a spectrum.

    But in general, it still seems fair to say that many dialects in German seem to have retained more features that are more characteristic of a dialect than merely an accent, and many people (perhaps especially in German?) seem to use the word 'dialect' to characterize different kinds of English, when in English we would use the word 'accent.'
    #21Author hm -- us (236141) 11 Mar 09, 17:51
    Comment
    Die hier verwendete Definition scheint unscharf und nicht deckungsgleich mit sprachwissenschaftlich gängiger Praxis.
    #22Authoramazombi (529086) 11 Mar 09, 18:23
    Comment
    To hm--us, just because somebody is unregistered, doesn't mean that they're points are less valid. We all have to start somewhere.

    To illustrate the point that dialects of English exist, see how many of you can understand 100% of the following paragraph in Scottish dialect:

    "Faar I wis brocht up, e only seabirds we'd see wis e seamaas. In my time we caad em seagulls, bit aaler fowk wid say seamaas, makin't soon like 'simaaze'. Ere's ay change goin on in e dialect, an ye get a mixter o aal an new, bit it's e life o language tae be aye adaptin tae different generations an different times. It's naething tae greet aboot. Naething staans still, bit gin a wye o spikkin's richt hannlet, fa's tae say bit fit it michna leave its mark tee on fit ey caa e standard language? - for ere's nae doot at e standard language sair needs a bit o revitalisation noo an aan. Bit I'm on aboot seagulls, nae hobbyhorses."

    Of course, you can understand most of it, but it's no easier to read than Austrian German, thus defining it as a dialect. Another example I have come across was when I went to Malaysia. About 60% of Malaysians have English as their first language, but their use of grammar, vocabulary and pronunciation is completely different from standard British English.
    #23AuthorDanBB, UK11 Mar 09, 18:32
    Comment
    do you think those people with a "dialect" don't know how to write properly?


    #24AuthorGillespie11 Mar 09, 22:40
    Comment
    #25AuthorMikeE (236602) 12 Mar 09, 00:34
    Comment
    From the Wikipedia Artical

    Language vs dialect

    There are no universally accepted criteria for distinguishing languages from dialects, although a number of paradigms exist, which render sometimes contradictory results. The exact distinction is therefore a subjective one, dependent on the user's frame of reference. (See Dialect)

    Scottish Gaelic and Irish are generally viewed as being languages in their own right rather than dialects of a single tongue but are sometimes mutually intelligible to a limited degree - especially between southern dialects of Scottish and northern dialects of Irish (programmes in each form of Gaelic are broadcast on BBC Radio nan Gaidheal and RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta), but the relationship of Scots and English is less clear, since there is usually partial mutual intelligibility.

    Since there is a high level of mutual intelligibility between contemporary speakers of Scots in Scotland and Ulster (Ulster Scots), and a common written form was current well into the 20th century, the two varieties have usually been considered as dialects of a single tongue rather than languages in their own right. The government of the United Kingdom "recognises that Scots and Ulster Scots meet the Charter's definition of a regional or minority language"[7]. Whether this implies recognition of one regional or minority language or two is a question of interpretation. Ulster Scots is defined in legislation (The North/South Co-operation (Implementation Bodies) Northern Ireland Order 1999) as: the variety of the Scots language which has traditionally been used in parts of Northern Ireland and in Donegal in Ireland [8].

    Notwithstanding legal definitions, Scots and Ulster Scots are considered dialects of English by some.[citation needed]

    While in continental Europe closely related languages and dialects may get official recognition and support, in the UK there is a tendency to view closely related vernaculars as a single language. Even British Sign Language is mistakenly thought of as a form of 'English' by some, rather than being language in its own right, with a distinct grammar and vocabulary. The boundaries not always being clear cut can lead to problems in estimating numbers of speakers.
    #26AuthorNutter12 Mar 09, 01:00
    Comment
    I am a studied philologist. But hey, what do I know...?!

    And btw, only because people are not registered, doesn't mean they don't have valid points. It might be they don't have the chance to log-in from their office computer. Ever thought about that? There are restrictions, you know.
    #27AuthorPhilologist12 Mar 09, 10:12
    Comment
    @Philologist:
    Reg' dich nicht auf. Verweise auf Qualifikationen und Expertise, so wie die Erwähnung einschlägiger Literatur, sind hier nur bedingt geeignet um Gehör zu finden.
    #28Authoramazombi (529086) 12 Mar 09, 10:38
    Comment
    Mandarin and Cantonese are different enough to be considered different languages, yet are referred to as Chinese "dialects", yet Swedish, Norwegian, and Danish are mutually intelligible enough to be considered dialects, yet are referred to as different languages.

    There really might be something to the Army and Navy thing? Perhaps this is why everything is called a "dialect" in a countries full of pacifist hippies such as Germany?
    #29AuthorIan12 Mar 09, 10:49
    Comment
    Good point. Still I would like to add, that being a pacifist hippie does not directly lead to a stringent differentiation between the terms accent and dialect. It does appear to help though. Maybe that's because your average pacifist hippie has enough time at his disposal to actually read and think about things admittedly not of global importance.
    #30Authoramazombi (529086) 12 Mar 09, 11:02
    Comment
    @Amazombi: Ja, weil hier einige Leute dermassen penetrant besserwisserisch scheinen, dass sie nicht mal wissenschaftlicher Literatur glauben. Wie überheblich kann man eigentlich sein? Dieses Forum verkommt immer mehr zum Kindergarten, wo sich die Kiddies beweisen wollen wer das größere Sandförmchen hat. Echt traurig.
    #31AuthorPhilologe12 Mar 09, 11:20
    Comment
    @ yackydar #7 - Oi, who are you calling incomprehensible? ;-)
    (Although I don't speak Geordie, but Nortumbrian. Yes, there is a difference. No, nobody from anywhere south of Durham would be able to recognise the difference.)
    #32Authorbevalisch12 Mar 09, 11:26
    Comment
    Oh, and Northumbrian was originally a language in its own right, although most people in the North-East now only speak a different dialect of English.

    From the Northumbrian Language Society Website: "Is Northumbrian a language, a dialect or an accent?

    Those reasonably well versed in modern British culture may have heard of footballer Alan Shearer, or of actor Robson Green, or TV presenter Jayne Middlemiss, all of whom speak with a clear regional accent. The words they speak are mainly standard English, but they are spoken with a distinct Northumbrian accent.

    Most British people are probably familiar with, and understand, the traditional Geordie war-cry of “Haway/Howway the lads!” and would accept that it is unique to Tyneside. The same is true for “Newcassel Broon Ale”. These phrases are clearly different from standard English, but they are generally understandable, and they can therefore be classified as part of the north east of England’s regional dialect.

    But what about “Fornenst thi cree an abeun thi hemmel, wu’ll hev wor bait, an batten worsels, time wu watch wor bollen bellies graa tiv i muckle, yarkin size”? Individual words are recognisable as English, but what does the rest of it mean? If you can’t translate the rest into English, then you’ve come across a different language; and that language is Northumbrian.

    Northumbrian is a language because it satisfies the comprehensibility test, which states that related dialects become separate languages when they are no longer mutually comprehensible, like Spanish and Portuguese." http://www.northumbriana.org.uk/langsoc/about.htm
    #33Authorbevalisch12 Mar 09, 11:32
    Comment
    @Philologe:
    Ich weiß und verstehe warum du dich aufregst. Habe doch oben schon geschrieben, dass ich eine sehr ähnliche Diskussion unlängst, auch als Philologe, mit Verweis auf Literatur, und auf die Tatsache, dass es für den einen oder anderen Terminus durchaus verbindliche Definitionen gibt, geführt habe. Ich wollte dich nicht rügen oder so, sondern einfach mein Mitgefühl zum Ausdruck bringen.
    #34Authoramazombi (529086) 12 Mar 09, 11:50
    Comment
    When I was in highschool (years ago) one of my fellow students asked our German teacher why German has to be this way or that way as to be so different from the way things are done in English. Her response was, "because it's German and if it were such then it would just be considered a dialect of English, which it's not."

    #35AuthorKT12 Mar 09, 12:41
    Comment
    Stop fighting, fowk. Ne use!
    The best way te taak aboot dialect is te speak in dialect! So howay , show weh what you've got!
    #36AuthorNewcatsle/UK12 Mar 09, 14:59
    Comment
    You mean "show weh what yus've got" ;-)
    #37Authorbevalisch12 Mar 09, 15:04
    Comment
    Ne , what are yee taakin aboot . Yer version is Northumbrian, lad!

    :)))
    #38AuthorNewcastle/UK12 Mar 09, 15:11
    Comment
    If at all it would be "yers" in the plural and "yus" in singular :)
    #39AuthorNewcastle/UK12 Mar 09, 15:12
    Comment
    #32 bevalisch: no offence meant with what I said about Scots and Geordie (and I suppose Northumberland) being incomprehensible to people who aren't familiar with them. I was just trying to demonstrate the point that some dialects in English are very different from the standard form. Und das ist gut so!

    I phoned a call centre in the UK yesterday and got through to a lovely chappy with a Geordie accent (or maybe it was Northumberland!) who was speaking standard English. I have no doubt that when he met his mates in the pub later in the evening his accent would switch to a Geordie dialect, with its own distinct vocabulary and grammar. This switching between the standard language with a regional accent (for the benefit of outsiders) and a regional dialect (for the locals among themselves) is certainly more common in Germany, but it does happen in Britain as well.
    #40Author yackydar (264012) 12 Mar 09, 15:45
    Comment
    Why is everybody going on about us Geordies LOL? Listen to the Welsh or the Mackems and you know what "incomprehensible" is ;-)
    #41AuthorNewcastle/UK12 Mar 09, 15:52
     
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