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    Leeches in language learning

    Comment

    A recent thread led me to discover an idea that is new to me:

     " A leech is something that drains time from your studying and will keep doing so until you do something about it. The most essential example would be a piece of vocabulary that just refuses to stick in your mind. Even though it has appeared numerous times in your study method you just can’t recall the correct word or meaning, perhaps because it’s very difficult, perhaps for no readily apparent reason whatsoever"


    I find this is a big problem for me learning German and Italian on my own. It wasn't a problem when I was learning French or Latin at school, probably because there was a teacher doing vocab. drill with us every lesson. Age is a part of it the problem but not the only part.


    Now for the question: what are your leeches and what do you do to tackle them?


    Author Ecgberht (469528) 03 Aug 20, 12:38
    Comment
    If it's okay to just link to that thread ...

    related discussion: leech

    It was surprising to me too, since I had never even heard the term. I wonder where it comes from -- maybe even a Japanese or Asian source?

    I would say one of mine -- I would call them bêtes noires, stumbling blocks, etc. -- is verb prefixes and separable verbs in German. But I'm not doing a thing about it, because at this point in my life, I'm just not motivated to actively study and improve to meet any external standard, only to keep picking up the odd point here and there.

    So I suppose on a meta level that would be active vs. passive learning.




    #1Author hm -- us (236141) 03 Aug 20, 13:20
    Comment

    There are several threads in the archive under 'language learning,' but no others specifically about how to get past the beginner level where you just learn isolated words.


    So I picked this one, somewhat at random, because I wanted somewhere to share this NYT article by linguistics professor John McWhorter, recommending two particular programs I had never heard of, Assimil and Glossika.


    _______________


    How to Say What You Need to Say in Another Language

    By John McWhorter

    “My uncle is a lawyer, but my aunt has a spoon.”

    You know those language textbook dialogues? Where people seem to talk more about silverware (“the fork, the knife”) and what color things are more than any real person ever does and, having mastered these locutions, you get off the plane in a place where the language is spoken and can barely figure out how to say, “How do I get outside?”

    People often ask me what the best ways of learning a language are without a classroom. And the truth is that a lot of ways most readily available will be fun and useful but won’t give what they really want. Say you want to be able to connect with an in-law who doesn’t speak English well or with people you supervise who don’t or you just want to be able to enjoy films and TV shows in the language.

    If so, lawyers and spoons aren’t going to do the job. Neither actual people nor fictional ones are much given to discussing silverware or remarking on basic weather conditions (“It is raining”), and “My name is …” is useful in an interaction with someone only one time. You need to be able to say and understand real things, such as “He didn’t even know she was right in front of him” and “That smells more like turkey than chicken” and “No, you’d better go around back.” Those aren’t idioms; they are the kinds of things you say all the time.

    Plus you need to be able to get past feeling that actual speakers of the language talk too fast. There are no spaces between words in spoken language, and sentences go by in a stream. But this is no more “too fast” than the sky is too blue. Humans don’t express themselves in carefully paced nuggets of speech. To be able to handle a language means dealing with that reality.

    The issue is the intermediate level. What do you do after you’ve done a program that gets you started

    ( https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/28/travel/lan... )

    and takes you through the basic level, like Duolingo or Babbel (or my favorite, less known in the United States, Assimil)?

    ( https://www.assimil.com/en/ )

    You can take a class, but suppose you want to do it yourself? How do you get past “My cousin has a house” and “I see seven pens”?

    I want to share my answer to that, because I have spent my life compulsively teaching myself to get around in languages — I have the polyglot disease — and I know of a way to get farther than people usually get. There is no reason that Glossika

    ( https://ai.glossika.com/ )

    shouldn’t be as well known as Duolingo and Babbel. It teaches you real language, and it gets you used to just hearing the language, rather than relying as much on text as sound. After all, there are no subtitles in real life.

    The method is pretty simple. You get recordings of 5,000 sentences in the language of your choice. Glossika comes in more than 60 languages at this point: If you feel your life isn’t complete without immersing yourself in some Slovenian or Uzbek, Glossika is for you. But the important part here is that the sentences are real ones. The first time I used it, the first sentence was about being good at tennis. Think: In a foreign language you know, were you ever taught how to say “good at”? To speak a language is to know how to say things like that. ...

    Glossika isn’t flashy. You don’t get much by way of games (or “gamification” as one apparently says these days). Culture is not the point, either; it is assumed you will take in that kind of information elsewhere. Glossika is about doing the work. And do it for some months, getting in all the sentences … and one fine day, it’s like going from the black and white to the color part of “The Wizard of Oz.”

    Suddenly you can understand what native speakers are saying, because now the language is in your ear for real. I’ll never forget the day I walked by some Chinese people and heard one of them saying in Mandarin, “Wait, take a picture of that statue,” when just a few months earlier I would have heard nothing but a stream of sounds. ...

    I ... want more people to know about Glossika because its creator, Michael Campbell,

    ( https://ai.glossika.com/blog/author/michael )

    is a sterling citizen of the world’s languages. Of the roughly 7,000 languages that are currently spoken, only about 500 or 600 may still be in use a hundred years from now. Globalization and urbanization focus people on speaking the big lingua francas, such that languages spoken by small Indigenous groups stop being passed on to children. Also, in countless cases in the past, Native Americans and Australian Aboriginals were discouraged from using their languages, with children physically abused in schools for doing so. There is now a language diversity crisis akin to the one facing so much of the world’s flora and fauna.

    As one response to this, Glossika helps you learn some struggling languages, such as Welsh and Taiwanese, free. Campbell is encouraging the last speakers of various Indigenous languages to record Glossika sets in their languages. ...

    After I did one set, a speaker told me, “You know a lot of words!” That hedged but sincere compliment was dead on; I spoke roughly like a bright 4-year-old, and Glossika did that.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/14/opinion/le...



    #2Author hm -- us (236141)  15 Sep 21, 12:51
    Comment

    Danke, interessant. Ich weiß noch, wie ich in Schweden den Schlüssel für unser Ferienhaus abholen wollte und mir den entsprechenden Satz zurechtgelegt hatte. Ich hatte aber übersehen, dass der Mensch auch irgendwas antworten würde - was ich natürlich nicht verstanden habe. Dann halt doch Englisch. 🙂


    Mein Problemwort in Schwedisch war skog /skogen = der Wald. Ich weiß nicht warum, wahrscheinlich weil das Wort weder eine lateinische noch ein mir bekannte germanische Wurzel hat und ich es daher komplett neu lernen musste.

    #3Author Qual der Wal (877524) 15 Sep 21, 13:06
    Comment

    Hehe, für dieses Thema habe ich auf meiner Website eine eigene Rubrik "Das kann ich mir nie merken" 😀. Im Norwegischen sind es vor allem die Zeitformen, obwohl (oder gerade weil) die den deutschen sehr ähnlich sind. Besonders schwer tue ich mich mit den Wörtern se "sehen" und si "sagen". Im Französischen sind es hauptsächlich die Regeln für die Liaison (wenigstens den Unterschied zwischen des héros und des zéros werde ich nicht mehr vergessen) und im Niederländischen denke ich jedesmal wieder, dass net "nicht" heißt, obwohl ich eigentlich weiß, dass es "eben" oder "gerade" bedeutet.

    #4Author JanZ (805098)  15 Sep 21, 13:12
    Comment
    >>die Regeln für die Liaison (wenigstens den Unterschied zwischen des héros und des zéros werde ich nicht mehr vergessen)

    So, what is it? I know a little French, but I never got as far as knowing which words could be liaised and which couldn't.

    And, you have a website? Should we bookmark it? (-;
    #5Author hm -- us (236141) 15 Sep 21, 13:25
    Comment

    So, what is it?


    Bei des zéros ist ein weiches s in der Mitte (von Binden kann man da eigentlich nicht sprechen), bei des héros nicht. Kann sonst peinlich werden, weil es eben genau das andere heißt 🙂.


    And, you have a website? Should we bookmark it? (-;


    Von mir aus gerne 🙂: https://www.janzbikowski.de/ Mein anderes Hobby nimmt da zwar deutlich mehr Raum ein, aber die Sprachabteilung ist hoffentlich auch interessant. Die in #4 erwähnte Seite mit meinen Erfahrungen zum Sprachenlernen ist hier: https://www.janzbikowski.de/spr/test.php

    #6Author JanZ (805098)  15 Sep 21, 13:56
    Comment

    @JanZ

    Danke schön ... Spannend und 1) irre, wie viel du reist (guckte in "Wochenrückblick"!, 2) mit wie vielen Fremdsprachen du dich beschäftigst. Respekt. Lese andermal genauer.

    #7AuthorBraunbärin (757733)  15 Sep 21, 14:27
    Comment

    Danke schön 🙂!

    #8Author JanZ (805098)  15 Sep 21, 15:06
    Comment

    This is my current favourite: https://www.korrekturen.de/kurz_erklaert/gewo...


    Don't you think it's sometimes just that when you've struggled with a word a few times, you get so stressed about trying to remember the right thing that your mind goes totally blank, and however much you search for it, it won't occur to you until later on when you've relaxed? Not just in foreign languages; I listen to a certain podcast in which the word "feudalism" keeps coming up, except that the host, a native speaker of Canadian English, constantly forgets the word. He'll refer to it as "that word I keep forgetting" and by now most of the regular listeners probably know what he means.

    #9Author CM2DD (236324) 15 Sep 21, 16:04
    Comment

    Don't you think it's sometimes just that when you've struggled with a word a few times, you get so stressed about trying to remember the right thing that your mind goes totally blank, and however much you search for it, it won't occur to you until later on when you've relaxed?


    Absolut, und auch ich habe ein Beispiel außerhalb vom Sprachenlernen: Die Töchter von zwei Nachbarn haben recht ähnliche Namen. Nachdem ich sie einmal verwechselt habe, schaffe ich es seit Jahren nicht, mir die richtige Zuordnung zu merken. Ich glaube auch, dass der Stress mich daran hindert.


    Beim Musizieren wird etwas in der Art als "Angststelle" bezeichnet, nämlich eine nicht ganz einfache Stelle, bei der man sich mal verspielt hat und die seitdem sehr schwierig ist.


    Was ich mich aber frage ist, ob die in #0 zitierte Ausgangprämisse überhaupt stimmt: Behindern solche "Egel" wirklich so stark das weitere Sprachenlernen? Sind sie nicht einfach nur Ärgernisse, die aber unseren Fortschritt außerhalb dieser Wörter nicht großartig beeinflussen?

    #10Author Mattes (236368) 15 Sep 21, 16:17
    Comment

    Eine wirksame Merkhilfe sind bekanntlich Eselsbrücken; je abwegiger oder lustiger, desto besser. Allerdings ist es ein wenig zeitaufwendig, sie sich auszudenken; deshalb tue ich das auch nur selten.


    Ein Beispiel aus meiner Schulzeit: Eine lateinische Vokabel, die ich mir um nichts in der Welt merken konnte, war das Verb fateri (dt. gestehen; Partizip fassus). Meine Eselsbrücke beruhte auf dem Umstand, dass ich einen ziemlich beleibten Vater hatte; der (wenig schmeichelhafte und innerlich mit Pathos auszusprechende) Merkspruch war:


    Vater, du Fass – gesteh!


    Die meisten lateinischen Vokabeln, die ich gelernt habe, sind längst wieder vergessen; diese nicht.

    #11Author Cro-Mignon (751134)  15 Sep 21, 17:12
    Comment
    In die Semmel biß der Kater - damit konnte ich mir bis heute semel - bis - ter - quater (einmal, zweimal, dreimal, viermal auf Latein) merken. :-)
    #12Author Qual der Wal (877524) 15 Sep 21, 21:51
    Comment
    Hihi, den Merksatz kenne ich auch. Aber meine Mutter ist ja auch Lateinlehrerin.
    #13Author tigger (236106) 17 Sep 21, 14:57
    Comment

    Glossika sounds interesting, I'm going to have a look at that.


    After all these years, I am still terrible at remembering the genders of nouns in German.

    #14Author bishop_j (877745) 17 Sep 21, 15:07
    Comment

    #5 und #6:


    Nach meinem (nicht ganz optimalem) Französisch hat héros ein h aspiré, damit gibt es hier keine Liaison und auch keine Verwechslung mit zéro. (Interessanter Weise hat héroine ein h muet!)


    Wenn(!) eine Bindung aufträte, wäre sie allerdings auch mit stimmhaftem s, so dass die Helden von den Nullen nicht zu unterscheiden wären.


    Das französische Forum scheint meine Ansicht zu bestätigen, aber ich lasse mich gerne korrigieren. (Suche unter Diskussionen zu héros, ich weiß leider nicht wie ich direkt verlinke).

    #15Author PeterK. (599041)  18 Sep 21, 10:55
    Comment
    Stimmt alles, aber das hatte ich doch schon alles genau so geschrieben?
    #16Author JanZ (805098)  18 Sep 21, 14:48
     
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