Was meinst Du denn mit "juristische Bezeichnung"?

Also "bachelor" ist zum einen ein akademischer Grad, zum anderen aber eben auch "Junggeselle", wobei es bei letzterer Bedeutung auch die weibliche Form "bachelorette" gibt.

"spinster" bedeutet meines Wissens sowas wie "alte Jungfer"

nochmal zum juristischen ...

Wenn Du damit den "Ehestand" meinst, dann ist man
single
married
divorced
widdowed

widowed

spinster = ledige Frau
It can, but does not necessarily always, refer to an elderly woman.

Danke Rex und satori.
"Spinster" ist engl. "Legalsprache" für unverheiratete Frauen - dass bestätigt Leo zumindest und ist aus meine Erfahrung auch Korrekt.
Aber aus meine Erfahrung ist der männliche Gleiche "Bachelor", steht aber nicht in Leo.
Ich wollte nur erfragen ob etwas sich verändert hat oder fehlt das Wort bei Leo in diesem Zusammenhang.

When I married my wife in London 37 years ago, she was a spinster of the parish of xxx and I was a bachelor of the parish of yyy. Steht da auf alle Unterlagen.
She was definitely not an "alte Jungfer" and I was not a "Junggeselle".
Juristich gesehen ist "Single" engl. Amtsprache?

@BritishLion: Du warst wahrscheinlich doch ein Junggeselle, oder? Junggeselle ist meines Wissens nach jeder unverheiratete Mann (und das mußt Du ja gewesen sein, um Deine Frau heiraten zu können)

ok, dann ziehe ich meine Behauptung zurueck und bringe sie erneut ein mit dem Hinweis AE

I agree with Rex #1 for AE
Spinster would be considered at best ironic, at worst derogatory and insulting.....
Haven't heard it in years, and even in the dark ages when I was a child, we already only used it negatively: she's such an old spinster (ie, fuddy-duddy, rigid, absolutely no fun! - and that's being kind)

bachelor, on the other hand, seems to have no negative connotation

I've seen a fair bit of insurance legal stuff, and the designation is always as in #2

Thanks to all. I'm not sure about the AE terminology, I just wanted to know if "bachelor" can be used in the same legal way as "spinster" in British legal English.

@MC - sicher war ich mal Junggeselle, wir haben die Kneipen von London trocken getrunken, alle curry-houses leer gegessen und die Strassen danach vollgekotzt. Die Mädchen möchte ich nicht erwähnen weil ich jetzt Gentleman bin und, leider, kein Junggeselle mehr. (:-(

"When I married my wife in London 37 years ago, she was a spinster of the parish of xxx and I was a bachelor of the parish of yyy. Steht da auf alle Unterlagen.
She was definitely not an "alte Jungfer" and I was not a "Junggeselle"."
Da stimme ich MC zu: Wenn Du nicht gerade geschieden oder verwitwet warst, warst Du natürlich ein Junggeselle.
Das ist jeder unverheiratete Mann, ob er nun die Straßen vollkotzt oder nicht!
Der Begriff sagt nichts über den Lebenswandel aus, sondern einfach nur, daß jemand unverheiratet ist.

Letzter Satz fehlte:
Insofern ist die Übersetzung mit "bachelor" vollkommen korrekt.

(Von der zusätzlichen Bedeutung des "Bachelor" als akademischem Grad mal abgesehen; das ist natürlich etwas anderes. Obwohl man da auch über historische Zusammenhänge des Wortes spekulieren könnte: Immerhin gibt es im deutschen - zwar nichtakademischen - Ausbildungssystem auch einen "Gesellen"!)

In legalese (at least in AE), it is always "So-and-So, an unmarried man/woman" if the person in question is single. The terms "bachelor," "bachelorette," "spinster," etc., have no legal meaning, as far as I know.

The main problem seems to be that British Lion appears to misunderstand the German term 'Junggeselle'-

'Junggeselle' means 'bachelor', plain and simple- i.e. an unmarried man. It has nothing to do with drinking in pubs, eating in curry houses and ensuring that the street cleaners have a job.

All of the above may be circumstancial consequences of bachelorhood, but have nothing to do with the definition of the term.

For a man, if you have never been married, you are a bachelor. If you were married but your wife died, you are a widower, and if you got divorced, you are a divorcee (I suppose, if you were granted an annulment, that would still technically leave you a bachelor...).


'Jungfer', like 'spinster', is not a terribly common word anymore, and tends to be associated with elderly ladies- i.e. an 'old spinster' - 'alte Jungfer'. However, again, the term itself does not necessarily make any reference to age.

The association to "Jungfer" today is not necessarily old, it's simply an old word. For example, you find it in Grimm's Märchen as "drei Jungfern...", and I would still understand it exactly as such if there is no further context. Obviously, if you're talking about an "alte Jungfer" or a "ver...te Jungfer" (sorry, I black out on the word, but it's a pretty frequent adjective), it's a different story; quite tellingly, the "old" and the "ver" already indicate that it's not a Jungfer in its original state...

Stupid question: So can any bachelor (unverheirateter Mann) be a "Junggeselle"? I had always assumed that it's more like a "single": I would never have called a man in a stable relationship, possibly even sharing an apartment with Her or Him, a "Junggeselle". Should I?

...association of...

Where- and whenever I read the word "spinster", I have to think of Katharine Hepburn in "African Queen" :-)

#12 Richard - No, I understand "Junggeselle" perfectly. My original thread was that in Leo under "spinster" the definition is given of an unmarried lady, then in brackets "law".
The same courtesy is, however, not given for "bachelor". This led me to ask if there is, perhaps, an omission here, or if the word is no longer used in a legal context. If not then what? "Single" doesn't seem to have the same legal connotations as "spinster". What then, under British law, is the legal term for an unmarried man?

British law is, as we all know, very archaic sometimes, but I cannot imagine the terminology on marriage certificates of 30 or 40 years ago suddenly becoming out of date.

@ British Lion

My apologies, your comments in #8 suggested that you associated 'Junggeselle' with drinking & partying, rather than with a marital status.
I'm not sure why LEO has (law) in brackets after spinster- the only explanation I could think of, is that spinster is a word that is so seldomly used these days, that LEO thought (incorrectly, in my view), that its use is restricted solely to legal terminology.

Bachelor, on the other hand, is a perfectly common term for 'Junggeselle', so that it does not need to be limited to (law).


@ Let's go Arabic, Leo

Any unmarried man is a bachelor- if someone has a partner, or is even living with them, one might not refer to them as a bachelor, but it would not be wrong to do so. Similarly, one might not refer to an unmarried man who is in a long term relationship as a 'Junggeselle', although that, technically, is what he is.

That said, I can't think of many situations today, where one would actually need to refer to someone as a bachelor/Junggeselle, other than in legal terms.

"That said, I can't think of many situations today, where one would actually need to refer to someone as a bachelor/Junggeselle, other than in legal terms."

Well, yes. There is the use of "alter Junggeselle" for an elderly man who never got married and who is thought of as being a bit "verschroben", pretty much like the use of "alte Jungfer".
I would imagine that "alter Junggeselle" is more common still than "alte Jungfer" because it's not quite as insulting.

Yes, Hillard7, that's exactly my point. I was asked to translate a rather complicated prenuptial agreement, something I hate doing, and got stuck on the legal term for an unmarried man. I have used "bachelor" and "spinster" as that is what is stated on my own certificate. My problem was only that Leo seems to have omitted this legal reference.
The "German version is " Herr bzw. Frau xxx, hat bisher keinen Ehevertrag geschlossen", which comes out too clumsy in English.

I'm sorry, BritishLion, but I am getting more and more confused now as to what is your point...

I get it that you are looking for an ENGLISH legal term for an unmarried man?
So what's wrong with "bachelor"? Except for the fact that it has other meanings as well, which doesn't really matter because from the context it is obvious that the academic degree or any other meaning cannot be meant?

My point is, as mentioned at #16, in Leo "spinster" is given as a legal word, but not "bachelor".
Are we therefore to assume that "bachelor" does not have a legal connotation, or am I being a little too pedantic?

" Herr bzw. Frau xxx, hat bisher keinen Ehevertrag geschlossen",

Mr. and Ms. XXX have not yet signed a prenuptial agreement - geht das nicht?

Hit send to quickly - Up to now, Mr. and Ms. XXX...

Danke Carly-AE, ich habe einfach " Herr xxx, bachelor, of ..(Anschrift) genommen. Scheint mir nicht so umständlich zu sein. Anything for an easy life (.-))

@BritishLion, aber wenn kein "Jungeselle" im deutschen steht, muss es eigentlich auch nicht im englischen auftauchen, oder ??

Not sure if I add confusion or clarity to the discussion:

We (may) have:

Junggesellen
Unverheiratete
Alleinstehende
Getrennt Lebende
Geschiedene
Strohwitwer
Verwitwete and, last not least:
Wiederverheiratete . . .

@Carly-AE, der Originaltext wurde von einem Notar verfasst und ist sehr förmlich. Ich bezweifele ob er "Junggeselle" in diesem Zusammenhang verwenden wird?

@Daddy - No woman, no cry

Wie schon gesagt, mir wird immer unklarer, was Du eigentlich wissen willst.
Ob das englische "bachelor" ein "legal word" ist, hat doch nichts damit zu tun, ob es im deutschen Originaltext auch steht oder nicht.

"Junggeselle" bedeutet, wie schon vielfach gesagt, schlicht und ergreifend "unverheirateter Mann".
Trotzdem wirst Du das Wort in deutschen Ehe-Urkunden, die jünger sind als hundert Jahre, vermutlich nicht finden. Bin kein Jurist, aber soweit ich weiß, benutzt man in Dokumenten heute eher so ein Wort wie "unverheiratet" (parallel zu anderen Ehestandsbegriffen wie verwitwet, geschieden) - und ansonsten eben so, wie Du es vorgefunden hast: Herr XX und Frau YY.

Wo genau ist jetzt noch das Problem?

Is it really so difficult? At least I *think* that BritishLion found a common description of a bachelor (which, as Hillard7 said himself, is usually not "Junggeselle" anymore in German) and a spinster. Now the question came up as to how to translate it: And LEO suggests with its different tagging of "bachelor" and "spinster" that the latter is more of a legal term than the latter. So BritishLion simply wanted to assure himself that, yes, bachelor is still used as a legal term (implying that LEO has made a mistake).

(I've no idea whether bachelor is really the word to be used, other than the comments above. I've just tried to restate what *I* believe to be BritishLion's story...)

Well, then, is this a purely legal question concerning only the English term?

Where does the German translation come in?
The question of how a term is used in another language (e.g. Junggeselle in German) does not really have anything to do with the legal use in English, does it?

Schon gut - aber bei Leo (zumindest) steht nicht unter bachelor "unverheirateter Mann".
Es gibt für "bachelor girl" unverheiratetes Mädchen und unverheiratete Frau für "bachelor woman", sogar auch "Jungesselin"
Aber für "bachelor" allein gar nichts außer Junggeselle.

Meine originale Frage war ob "bachelor" genauso wie "spinster" für legale Dokumente genommen werden kann. Ich meine schon, aber ich wollte auf der sicherer Seite gehen.

Also, BritishLion, wenn Du jetzt anfängst, "bachelor woman" mit Jungeselin zu übersetzen, dann kriegst Du garantiert demnächst Ärger... ;-)

BritishLion - If your German original states: "Herr X und Frau Y" - there is NO NEED to translate into bachlor, bachlorette, spinster or whatever - Mr. and Ms. is the best translation. It's not up to you, to interpret law(s).

Auch wenn es nur eine Anmerkung am Rande ist: die Tatsache, dass ein Wort nicht mit dem Tag "[law]" versehen ist, bedeutet nicht, dass das Wort in Zusammenhang mit Rechtsthemen nicht verwendet werden darf, sondern lediglich, dass sein Gebrauch nicht auf den legalen Bereich beschränkt ist.

Das Wort "property" beispielsweise ist nicht mit einem Tag "[law]" versehen - trotzdem wird es sowohl in "legalem" Zusammenhang wie auch in einer Reihe von anderen Kontexten verwendet.

Selbstverständlich kann aber auch nicht der "Umkehrschluss" gezogen werden, dass jedes nicht mit "[law]" markierte Wort automatisch auch im rechtlichen Bereich verwendet wird...