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    Origins of "that sucks"

    Comment
    I am going to ask a question which I have carried on with me for many years.

    What are the roots of the expression "that sucks" (AE, as in "that movie really sucks")? Obviously I know what it means, I also know that there is a sexual background. However I have always wondered how this expression came about.

    My thoughts on this are:
    1) The original concept is: if something is really awful, it is as if someone (male, of course) would suck your organ.
    2) Now if that is the underlying concept, it leads me to different questions:
    - Isn't this a very low, rude, and homophobic expression?
    - How (and when, historically) has this quite awful expression become so popular?
    - Why is it that the swearword "it sucks" is generally acceptable, while "f..." is not, considering that they are both equally sexually explicit?
    - Do women not feel strange when they use this expression?
    AuthorTLE26 Jul 05, 18:18
    Comment
    Phrases take on a life of their own. No matter what its original meaning, it is now a common term, with no strong vulgar connotation.

    A teenage girl would say it probably without any concrete sexual image in her mind. If her parents heard it, they might discourage her or reprimand her, not because it's considered truly vulgar (like the F-word), but because it sounds course.

    Take a look at http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/8/me....
    #1Authoreric (new york)26 Jul 05, 18:30
    Comment
    Also, do a google search for: "that sucks" phrase

    (in the google search box, type "that sucks", including the quotation marks, plus the work "phrase" without the quotation marks).

    That will get you several hits about the origin and current usage of the phrase.
    #2Authoreric (new york)26 Jul 05, 18:34
    Comment
    "That sucks" ist doch die Kurzform von "that sucks ass", oder? Ich bin zwar kein englischer Muttersprachler, aber ich dachte immer, "to suck ass" wäre quasi als Umkehrung von "to kick ass" enstanden. Obwohl ich mir gar nicht sicher bin, dass letzteres früher da war.

    Na ja und wie "to kick ass" zu seiner Bedeutung gelangt ist, kann man sich ja ausmalen.
    #3Authormartin26 Jul 05, 18:45
    Comment
    I am not asking about the meaning and the current usage of the expression - both are quite clear to me. I am asking about its origin.
    #4AuthorTLE26 Jul 05, 18:49
    Comment
    @TLE

    The origin of "that sucks" or "it sucks", I believe is: "it/that sucks d**k" (you still hear people say that way), referrring to the fact that the act of performing oral sex on a male, especially when carried out by a male is per se pretty humiliating and debasing.
    In other words, the expression is used to refer to something of poor value, something bad, something really low and cheap: pretty much like performing oral sex on a man.

    I hope this helps.
    #5AuthorLillith US26 Jul 05, 20:18
    Comment
    @Lilith: As to its current sense, I don't think that the phrase currently retains any sense of "to suck d**k" (or "to suck ass"). It may have originated that way, but it no longer has that sense. People say "that sucks" casually. It's not a nice thing to say, but it's not considered vulgar. It is not understood nowadays as a direct substitute for "that sucks d**k" or anything similar.
    #6Authoreric (new york)26 Jul 05, 20:48
    Comment
    @Eric

    Of course not, but I am pretty sure that that is the origin ....
    #7AuthorLillith US26 Jul 05, 20:52
    Comment
    @Lillith: Check some of the links at http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclie..."that+sucks"+phrase. (This is google search: "that sucks" phrase)
    #8Authoreric (new york026 Jul 05, 23:43
    Comment
    I agree with Lilith's explanation.

    Martin: ..oder? No, it isn't, the former was in use decades earlier. ...wäre..enstanden. They're unrelated.
    #9AuthorPeter <us>27 Jul 05, 07:43
    Comment
    Lilith, thanks a lot, but you just used other words to describe what I had already said in my original posting.. I do understand where its meaning comes from.

    I simply wanted to know: in what era (1950s, 1960s or earlier) and which region/country was this expression born? Who made it popular? Wasn't it considered "taboo" by the time? How did it become mainstream? etc.
    #10AuthorTLE27 Jul 05, 08:57
    Comment
    Ich möchte doch mal bezweifeln, dass der Ursprung ein sexueller ist. Es gab im Deutschen mal das Trendwort "ätzend". Ähnlich harmlos habe ich "that sucks" immer als das das Entziehen von Energie, Substanz begriffen.
    Das passt auch auf Oralsex, aber die Ansicht von Lilith halte ich für reichlich feministisch (und, mit Verlaub, für eine Generationenfrage).
    #11AuthorKlaus27 Jul 05, 10:19
    Comment
    http://www.renewamerica.us/forum/?date=040208

    The process by which these words have become acceptable in everyday speech is known in linguistics as Amelioration.

    Just in my lifetime I have watched the word “Sucks” ameliorate from an extremely crude expression to a word as benign as “stinks.” To most of the kids today, the origin of what the word refers to is not even part of its usage. Even the older generations are using it with its new meaning and no thought of its origins.

    And how many people today speak of being “Screwed” by the IRS without a second thought of its crude origins?

    Other words that were once benign, like Gay and Boner have become crude. In linguistics, the process by which words that were once acceptable become crude is called Pejoration.


    As one example you mentioned the word "sucks". Yes, it is becoming more common every day, but it is definitely not benign. I remember the first time that I heard the word used, in the meaning of today, on television. It was spoken by Robert Blake, on the Tonight Show (with Johnny Carson). It was shocking because it meant the same thing then that it does today. It pertains to homosexual activity, and it is exceedingly crude and unseemly. That people speak it without understanding its meaning is because of poor education and lack of proper upbringing and training in the customs of civilized society.
    #12AuthorGoogler27 Jul 05, 10:32
    Comment
    Googler, thanks a lot for the enlightenment on amelioration and pejoration. This is very interesting.

    I am glad that you also brought up the word "screwed" - it is even more akward than "sucks". If you go into details, think about a person that is being screwed by another person sexually - is there anything more ugly? (OK there is probably). Its next to rape, isn't it? However, "screwed" is OK, but "fuck" - the normal way - is not. Bizarre.

    When you say "that people speak it without understanding its meaning is because of poor education and lack of proper upbringing and training in the customs of civilized society" are you implying that one should not use it at all? I'm just asking because I heard the most civilized people using it and even noticed it in quite serious circumstances (e.g. a campaign why "cancer sucks").
    #13AuthorTLE27 Jul 05, 11:06
    Comment
    Das unterstreicht meine Vermutung, dass sich nicht alles um Sex drehen muss, zumal die im "Milieu" übliche Bezeichnung für Oralsex der "Blow-Job" bzw. "einen blasen" ist.
    #14AuthorKlaus27 Jul 05, 11:27
    Comment
    Klaus, wieso unterstreicht das (was eigentlich?) diese Vermutung von Dir? Ich sehe da überhaupt keinen Anhaltspunkt für Deine Vermutung.

    An dem sexuellen Ursprung des Ausdrucks "suck" hat doch niemand - außer Dir, mit Verlaub - gezweifelt. Es ist völlig unstreitig, dass es vom Oralsex herkommt.

    Es ging hier darum, wie aus dem ursprünglich sexuell anstößigen Begriff ein völlig normaler, umgangssprachlicher Begriff wurde. Diese Entwicklung, die bei verschiedenen Ausdrücken im Englischen zu beobachten ist, wird anscheinend "amelioration" genannt.


    #15AuthorTLE27 Jul 05, 12:13
    Comment
    I have a rhetorical question too. What is the origin of the word "geil"? Isn't this a rather crude expression? I have heard perfectly ordinary people use it and seen it in newspapers. Why is this word now acceptable and some others referring to sex are not?

    "Sucks" is not universally acceptable. It is used mainly by young people and mainly in casual talk. A slogan such as "cancer sucks" would be more likely on MTV than for the general public.

    "Screwed" is used by older generations but very likely has similar origins, implicitly viewing submissive sexual behavior as disgusting.

    Language is not always logical, tasteful or politically correct. If you aren't comfortable with the macho origins of a word you don't have to use it. On the other hand draining it of its original shock value may be useful.
    #16Authorlogicfan27 Jul 05, 12:53
    Comment
    I understand that language isn't always logical. I just wanted to discuss this particular expression ("sucks"), and I am thankful for everyone's input.

    However, I must object to the comparison between "geil" and - as you rightly state - very macho English expressions: It is true that "geil" is similar in that it formerly only meant sexual lust, and now is common for everything that is viewed positive. However, contrary to "sucks", "geil" has nothing contemptuous about it. Boys and girls of any sexual orientation can be "geil".
    #17AuthorTLE27 Jul 05, 13:17
    Comment
    "Geil" halte ich für ein wesentlich besseres Beispiel eines Bedeutungswandels vom sexuellen zum ugs. Gebrauch. TLE, erklär mal, warum es nicht "that blows" heisst, wenn alle Oralpraktiker/innen vom Blow Job reden. Ich sehe auch nicht, was am Oralsex spezifisch homosexuell sein soll.
    Das "ätzend" kam mir zur gleichen Zeit (um 1980) zu Ohren, geil kam später.
    #18AuthorKlaus27 Jul 05, 13:34
    Comment
    Yes, "geil" is more positive. Whether it is less macho may be debatable, as someone who is horny could be seen as being needy and therefore having less sexual power.

    It may depend on the point of view of the speaker. Perhaps identifying with "sucks" or "screwed" makes them negative, seeing "geil" as an external object makes it positive, in which case the two languages are consistent.

    Whether macho expressions necessarily have to do with sexual orientation, or whether homosexuality necessarily implies submissiveness, should probably be reserved for other forums.

    Whether English is a more macho language than German could be an interesting if provocative tangent. I suspect that counterexamples exist.
    #19Authorlogicfan27 Jul 05, 13:53
    Comment
    When I was a teen in the late 60's we hardly used the term 'sucks' outside of a sexual context. By the 70's it seemed to be slowly replacing 'stinks' in the phrase my parents would have used 'that stinks' and of course by the time Beavis and Butthead came along, 'sucks' was fully integrated in everyday language without necessarily referring to a sexual act..

    that's my perception of it anyway.. HTH
    #20Authorjimbomusic28 Jul 05, 11:42
    Comment
    >TLE, erklär mal, warum es nicht "that blows" heisst, wenn alle Oralpraktiker/innen vom Blow Job reden.

    Auch "that blows" oder "that bites" sind Synonyme für "sucks". Nur weniger verbreitet. Im Übrigen finde ich Deine Logik auch hier nicht ganz nachvollziehbar, Klaus, denn warum soll man aus der Tatsache, dass es das Wort "Blowjob" gibt, darauf schließen können, dass "sucks" nichts mit Oralsex zu tun hat?

    >Ich sehe auch nicht, was am Oralsex spezifisch homosexuell sein soll.

    Natürlich wird Oralsex nicht nur von Homosexuellen praktiziert. Aber die negative Bedeutung von "sucks" rührt natürlich (und das wird Dir jeder Englischmuttersprachler bestätigen) von der machistischen Vorstellung her, dass ein Blowjob unter homosexuellen Männern als "das Letzte" angesehen wird. Die Vorstellung eines Blowjobs von einer Frau löst bei niemandem negative Gefühle aus.
    #21AuthorTLE28 Jul 05, 15:02
    Comment
    Warum eigentlich, wenn ich hier mal so bloed fragen darf, wird ein Blowjob unter homosexuellen Maennern als "das Letzte" angesehen? Die finden das bestimmt besser als einen Blowjob von einer Frau.
    Oder??
    #22Authormaree28 Jul 05, 15:19
    Comment
    Ja, Maree, "die" (Homosexuellen) schon, aber der überwiegende Teil der Heteros (immer noch die Mehrheit) nicht, vor allem in Amerika!
    #23AuthorTLE28 Jul 05, 15:30
    Comment
    Falls das nicht klar geworden ist: ich identifiziere mich nicht mit dieser Vorstellung.

    Was ich deutlich machen wollte, ist: "sucks" hat einen Homosexuelle verächtlich machenden Hintergrund. Dennoch - und das ist das Erstaunliche - ist es im allgemeinen Sprachgebrauch üblich.
    #24AuthorTLE28 Jul 05, 15:34
    Comment
    Explanation as found at: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?ter...

    "The early Jazz musicians would say that a guy could really "Blow" if he had a good sound when playing the horn. If he couldn't play very well then they would say that he was "Sucking" on that horn. That's where the term "Suck" as being something bad came from."

    So, no sexual context?
    #25Authoranon30 Jul 05, 06:10
    Comment
    Different explanation found at http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=su..., confirming sexual background:

    "Slang sense of "be contemptible" first attested 1971 (the underlying notion is of fellatio)."

    #26AuthorTLE30 Jul 05, 12:33
    Comment
    TLE--"bites" predates "sucks" in this sense, and dates at least as far back as 1965 or before.
    #27AuthorPeter <us>02 Aug 05, 03:20
     
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