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  • Subject

    "were" or "was"?

    Sources
    I am not quite sure if it is "were" or "was". Word marks "were" as wrong.

    The original sentence is: "Kamerateam war etwas übertrieben, es waren lediglich ein paar Freunde."
    Comment
    I would translate it as "It were just a couple of friends", as it is more than just one friend.
    AuthorLuca_1 (656086) 20 Jul 16, 16:19
    Comment
    "...it happened to be just a couple of friends."
    #1Author Helmi (U.S.) (236620) 20 Jul 16, 16:24
    Suggestionhappened
    Sources
    hmmm, "it happened" sounds more like being surprise, like a coincident. However the person was expecting that it will be just a couple of people.
    #2AuthorLuca_1 (656086) 20 Jul 16, 16:28
    Comment
    It was just a couple of friends.

    "couple" is singular.
    #3Author SD3 (451227) 20 Jul 16, 16:33
    Comment
    it was
    they were

    The point is that it (which is referring to the team) is singular.
    #4Author amw (532814) 20 Jul 16, 16:36
    Comment
    Just to complete my thoughts:

    It was just a couple of friends.

    "couple" is singular, and apart from that I'm not sure we ever say "it were" unless we are speaking dialect or using the subjunctive. At least, off the top of my head I can't think of any examples.
    #5Author SD3 (451227) 20 Jul 16, 16:38
    Suggestionthanks for the explanation
    Sources
    thanks for the explanation
    #6AuthorLuca_1 (656086) 20 Jul 16, 16:51
     Beitrag #7­ wurde gelöscht.
    Comment
    'a couple of friends' is plural (obviously*) but the subject of the sentence is 'it', which is singular. So: It was just a couple of friends.

    *A couple of friends have just arrived for dinner.
    #8Author escoville (237761) 20 Jul 16, 18:10
    Comment
    The word "couple" itself is singular.
    #9Author Myotis (485253) 20 Jul 16, 18:36
    Comment
    The word "couple" itself is singular.

    In the sense that you can have one couple, two couples, yes. But as far as its usage goes, things aren't quite as simple. See the example in #8.
    #10Author Dragon (238202) 20 Jul 16, 18:42
    Comment
    We’ve had a few discussions on this already. English works differently from German here. In English, what comes first in this sort of sentence (i.e. “it”) is the subject, so whether the phrase “a couple of friends” is seen as singular or plural (#8-10) is irrelevant. (In fact it’s always treated as plural in English.)
    #11Author Stravinsky (637051) 20 Jul 16, 18:57
    Comment
    It was just a couple of friends getting together for a movie.
    #12Author A_monkey_in_a_silk (973106) 20 Jul 16, 21:29
    Comment
    To add to the above, the reason (as pointed out) is because "it" is singular, and therefore the verb and subject need to agree. That means "it was" has to be used.

    Alternatively, you could say "they were just a couple of friends", in which case the subject is "they" (plural), so the verb needs to agree and take the plural too.

    So here are a couple of other examples:
    A sudden noise startled him. But it was just the same old couple arguing again.

    Coming towards him, he spotted two dark figures, and tensed. But they were just a couple out for a midnight walk.

    What is important to notice here? The "it" or "they" references something in the previous sentence, either the noise (it, singular) or the two figures (they, plural). This means that context and what went before is often important.

    Things can be complicated slightly too by the use of collective nouns in BE, where a team (singular) can be treated as plural because it is viewed as being made up of a collection of individuals.

    Anyway, you can often rephrase while retaining meaning, so in this case you could also say:
    Calling them a camera crew would be a stretch too far; they were really just a bunch of friends.

    HTH
    #13Authorsjm (380044) 22 Jul 16, 14:26
    Comment
    I don't think any of you has hit the nail squarely on the head. The antecedent of "it" is "team," as sjm says. Team is singular. So you would also say "it was only some friends," where there is no doubt that the complement is plural. In German too you would use the singular with other verbs; e.g., "es bestand aus ein paar Freunde." "Es waren" (and the equivalents in romance languages) often="there were." "Es" is a mere placeholder; "it" can't be treated that way.

    "Couple" can be a plural as well as a (collective) singular, especially in its more particular use as a twosome such as a married couple. "We invited two couples for dinner. The first couple are coming together; the second couple are coming separately." That means that the two members of the second couple will not arrive together. "The second couple is coming separately" means that they are coming together with one another, but not together with the first couple. Surely most people would do it similarly in German.

    Query. Would any of you say "es bestand aus ein paar Freunden"? I'm just curious.
    #14Authormabr (598108) 22 Jul 16, 16:59
    Comment
    #14
    I would not treat it as anaphoric (referring to the antecedent team).

    I would treat is the same way as in
    "It was not a camera team.
    It was just a couple of friends."

    #15AuthorMikeE (236602) 22 Jul 16, 21:35
    Comment
    #15

    I agree with MikeE. Rather than being a pronoun referring to something already mentioned, "it" is a dummy pronoun, a syntactic expletive, "a word that performs a syntactic role but contributes nothing to meaning."


    Curious that the term expletive, which commonly refers to a swear word, is used also in this context. There (another syntactic expletive!) is probably some historical reason.


    #16Author patman2 (527865) 23 Jul 16, 22:32
    Sources
    Discussion deleted

    (expressions of quantity -- a lot of, a number of, a couple of, etc.)
    related discussion: number of + Singular or Plural?

    (the 'Das Problem sind die Nachbarn' thread)
    related discussion: variety with plural or singular verb? - #36

    Comment

    I agree with #4, #11, and #15. 'It' is singular and takes a singular verb, even if it is only a placeholder and does not refer to any particular noun.

    'Couple' is a red herring because it is not the subject of the sentence. The grammatical subject is 'it,' which is singular.

    The discussion about 'couple' could be useful in a different thread, but it's a completely different subtopic within the larger topic of differences in singular/plural agreement in German and English. For the purposes of this discussion, the word 'couple' doesn't matter. We can see the grammar more easily by replacing 'a couple of' with 'two.'

    It was just a couple of friends.
    It was just two friends.


    In simple linking sentences of the type

    A [linking verb] B,

    English defines A as the subject, even if A is is a small pronoun like 'it.'

    That is different from German, in which B can be the subject and can determine the number of the verb.

    So German sentences in which a plural verb follows a singular pronoun, such as 'Es waren,' 'es sind,' 'das waren,' 'das sind,' cannot be translated literally. In a linking sentence in English where the subject (= the noun or pronoun before the verb) is 'it' or 'that,' the verb must be singular. English cannot have '*it were' or '*that were' -- if you want the verb to be plural, you must begin with a plural pronoun.

    The only exception in English is 'there was' vs. 'there were,' where the verb does change and the placeholder stays the same. The reason is that 'there' is not a pronoun, but an adverb. There is no noun A -- the only noun (or pronoun) comes after the verb.

    What's that?
    It's a duck.

    What are those?
    Those are ducks.

    I went to the door and looked through the peephole. There were two people in the hall.

    I went to the door and looked through the peephole. It wasn't the pizza delivery person -- it was two people.


    Hope that helps.

    If anyone would like to go over all that once more in German, just to make it easier for beginners and intermediate learners, it might be really helpful -- just don't get sidetracked by 'couple.' (-:
    #17Author hm -- us (236141) 23 Jul 16, 23:47
    Comment
    Sorry, I can't edit without redoing all the links and italics by hand.

    —> I agree with #4, #8, #11, #15, etc.

    (I didn't mean to leave anyone out who made the same point.)
    #18Author hm -- us (236141) 23 Jul 16, 23:57
    Comment
    #15 et al: The explanation as a syntactic expletive also works. Sort of. But it works differently in English from in German, where the syntactic expletive "es" is followed by singular or plural, depending on the complement. "It" governs the verb number; "es" doesn't. And "it" is always at least somewhat semantic, with a very limited range of possible verbs to follow; there is no direct English equivalent for "Es kamen drei Grenadiere."

    I stick with the functionalist (?), antecedent explanation, rather than the expletive explanation. If the preceding sentence were "The members of the team...," then you might well (perhaps more likely) say, "They were only a couple of friends."

    Still, you're right, I didn't hit the nail squarely on the head either. Grammar can be squishy.
    #19Authormabr (598108) 25 Jul 16, 18:02
    Comment
    there is no direct English equivalent for "Es kamen drei Grenadiere."

    Doch! From Ivanhoe by Walter Scott:



    NOTE: There is also a syntactic expletive.
    #20Author patman2 (527865) 25 Jul 16, 21:42
    Comment
    I found this example from #13 jarring:

    "Coming towards him, he spotted two dark figures, and tensed. But they were just a couple out for a midnight walk."

    Wouldn't it be more natural to use "it was" here? Not as a pronoun for the "two dark figures", but as a "dummy", as mentioned in #16.


    #21Author Jalapeño (236154) 26 Jul 16, 01:46
    Comment
    #20: "There" is a syntactic expletive. No argument there. The issue concerns "it." Wikipedia, in fact, says, "There is some disagreement over whether the it in such sentences as "It is raining now" is an expletive. I would say yes it is for that sentence, but not with "team" in the background. But, as the Wiki-gods say, "there is some disagreement." Which is why I agreed that my hammer went awry. By no direct English equivalent, I meant, of course, no equivalent sentence with it=es. We have to substitute there=da. I could have said that more explicitly.

    I agree with #21. I think my example at #19 is somewhat likelier, though there could well be, again, some disagreement. The bottom line on which everyone agrees is that English has to say "it was" and can't say "it were," whereas "es sind" is perfectly standard. That's where the OP where we began.
    #22Authormabr (598108) 26 Jul 16, 02:01
    Comment
    I also agree with #21 -- good catch.
    #23Author hm -- us (236141) 26 Jul 16, 02:24
    Comment
    I disagree with #21. It's perfectly natural to use 'they' to refer to 'two dark figures'.
    #24Author John_2 (758048) 26 Jul 16, 03:00
    Comment
    Could it be a question of register? "they were" being more sophisticated / literary, "it was" being more colloquial?
    #25Author Jalapeño (236154) 26 Jul 16, 09:00
    Comment
    More a question of emphasis than of register, I'd say.
    #26Author John_2 (758048) 26 Jul 16, 20:00
    Comment
    I still think you were right the first time and it's a question of what sounds most natural. I don't think 'they' sounds right because it implicitly assumes that the figures were individuals already identified or defined, when all we know is something vague about two dark shapes.

    But part of the problem is that the sentence wasn't very natural, period -- it was something of an artificial construction in the first place. And one with a dangling participle to boot -- it should of course have read 'He spotted two dark figures coming towards him,' as 'coming towards him' does not describe the grammatical subject 'he.'
    #27Author hm -- us (236141) 26 Jul 16, 21:05
    Comment
    Yeah, I noticed that too, hm -- us. But I didn't want to confuse matters any more ... :)
    #28Author Jalapeño (236154) 26 Jul 16, 23:28
    Comment
    #27: It doesn't say 'shapes', it says 'figures'. We know, therefore, that they are living creatures, hence 'they' sounds entirely natural.

    The position of 'coming towards him' in the sentence is neither here nor there as far as this issue is concerned.
    #29Author John_2 (758048) 26 Jul 16, 23:42
    Comment
    "they" sounds perfectly normal to me too. I think it emphasises that the figures were identifiable as adult persons, and not a person and a large dog or a child e.g.    
    #30Authormikefm (760309) 27 Jul 16, 09:12
    Comment
    hallo - ich hab jetzt nicht alles obige gelesen,
    hätte nur noch einen Vorschlag :
    "to talk of the camera team was a bit exaggerated, just a couple of friends happened to be there"
    #31Author ama-ryllis (1081929) 27 Jul 16, 10:39
    Suggestionto talk of a camera team would be an exaggeration/to talk of a camera team had been an exaggeration
    Comment
    Just a suggestion that you might want to use rather than the simple past, either:
    Conditional (would be) if the idea of describing the friends as a camera team had not already been dwelt upon,
    Or pluperfect (had been) if for exemple it had previously been promised that a camera team would be there.
    These sound more idiomatic than just "was" although it is just "war" in the German.
    #32Author microtree574 (1133317) 27 Jul 16, 15:06
    Suggestionit was just a couple of friends
    Comment
    I think trying to avoid the problem by using "happened to" changes the meaning too much - "happened to be there" means that they had not particularly intended to be there at the same time as you.
    "It was just a couple of friends" makes more sense in the context.
    #33Author microtree574 (1133317) 27 Jul 16, 15:10
    Comment
    You could even say "would have been an exaggeration" so pluperfect conditional :)
    #34Author microtree574 (1133317) 27 Jul 16, 15:21
     
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