I think in this context "more empty" is better also.

The fact that trollies (carts for US) are angled so that products slide towards the customer supports this, since it makes the trolly seem much less full.

is my suggestion.

One would rarely say 'more empty'

'.... it makes the trolley seem a lot emptier.'

I like "less full" too.
The plural is trolleys in BE, btw.

I like the suggestion "less full". Psychologically it conveys the intended meaning better. (And as a bonus you don't even have to think about the grammar.)

Mur mal spaßeshalber:

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_...

;-)

Leider ist es nicht möglich noch eine andere Variante zu benutzen. Für eine klare Aussage "beides möglich" oder "nur eins möglich, und zwar "XXX"" wäre ich sehr dankbar!

Beides möglich.

more empty sounds wrong because it's nonsense, I'd say; if something (a trolley) is empty there's nothing in it so there can not be more than nothing in it or more no things. But with less full the mental image is different - maybe because there's an implied "than" (less than full) ?

'More empty' or 'less full' ... interesting maybe for psychologists.
But otherwise nonsense!
Shopping carts are angled basically so that they can be pushed into each other when they are parked or chained together. Its simply a technical issue and not some marketing trick or conspiracy theory!

more empty sounds wrong because it's nonsense, I'd say; if something (a trolley) is empty there's nothing in it so there can not be more than nothing in it or more no things. But with less full the mental image is different - maybe because there's an implied "than" (less than full) ?

edit: I can't imagine saying more empty...

"Emptier" does sound less logical to me than "less full", but why is that? Why does it sound more logical to talk about different degrees of fullness than different degrees of emptiness?

#10 :-)

Good question. In German it's possible (I think) to say "ein Glass ist leerer als das andere". You can't say that in English?

Alan posted while I was editing - agree about the angling being functional

#13 You can say "is the glass half full or half empty?", but in this case saying that the trolley looks emptier sounds funny.

Is it because that implies that it looked quite empty before, and now looks even more so?

your trolley is full; you take a couple of items out, now it's less than full. But you can't make it more empty. As I mentioned in #9, it's the implied less that makes less full sound OK, I suspect...

I don't have too many problems with e.g. "It looks emptier to me", but I would tend to expect it in conversation or some other informal context.

just see I should have written ...the implied "than" that makes less full sound OK" :-(

ghostwriter said in #7 that he could only use "emptier" or "more empty". Don't ask me why, but it renders the discussion after #8 somewhat otiose.

Sorry to wander off the topic; as the question seemed to have been answered I thought I'd just satisfy my own curiosity :-)

I doubt that any discussions here can be called "otiose". At least they are never regarded as such by the Leonites ;-)

#21 agree - and even if the only benefit is to raise blood pressure to an acceptable level early in the morning... :-)

Your explanations are all good and really helpful. Please allow me to explain it in a more detailed context.

When one uses a trolley in a supermarket the front is usually higher than the back. The intention is, that the goods one is putting in the trolley slide towards the customer. This means that the customer is not able to see all the goods in his trolley and therefor the trolley appears to be much more empty than it actually is. Customers should think that they haven't bought that much so far because there is almost nothing in their trolley.


I just noticed that I should have written "than it actually is", but I am still not sure wether my initial sentence is ok or not.

The intention is, that the goods one is putting in the trolley slide towards the customer.

sounds like a joke to me - at the most a bottle or can might roll a couple of centimetres before resting against the butter, but....?

I think we understand your argument, Ghostwriter; we just don't agree with it. But while you should listen to the language advice, you don't have to listen to the rest :-)

Just to dive in headfirst, here: just like I wouldn't say "beautifler", I wouldn't say "more empty". The comparative form of "empty" is "emptier". Empty, emptier, the emptiest. It's that simple. *putting foot down emphatically*

http://dictionary.die.net/emptier
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empty

This is supported by that fact that trolleys are so angled that products slide downwards towards the customer, making the trolley appear emptier than it actually is.

The argument is one thing. If marketing-experts say that is way trollies are angled this way I write it when I have to.

More important is the question if "much more empty" and "emptier" make any sense at all. Unfortunately the answers in this text are somehow for and against both phrases.

The fact that I could say that even "emptier" could be wrong, is interesting, but I would prefer to have facts both are ok.

I would argue the exact opposite: precisely because they are smaller on the bottom than on the top, the carts appear to fill up much more quickly than they would if top and bottom were the same size or the bottom were bigger than the top.

#28: Unfortunately the answers in this text are somehow for and against both phrases.

Do you mean in the text you're working on or do you mean this thread?

- The standard comparative form of "empty" is "emptier". This is the form you normally learn on EFL courses. Such courses tell you that two-syllable adjectives ending -y become a comparative ending -ier.

- In actual use, native speakers sometimes use the form "more empty", in certain contexts, without other native speakers noticing - in some contexts it sounds OK to many of us*. This is not normally taught on EFL courses.

* example:
This phrase is much more empty of meaning than that one.

@31: Thank you very much. That is a very helpful explanation.

The next answer will probably disagree with it :-)

I sort of agree... but the phrase in question is not one of those situations to me (the shopping cart appears emptier).

I'd tend to agree with you, the kat, but I think it is a bit of a grey area, with people disagreeing on whether "more empty" is OK in any context.

In any case "emptier" is the safest option.

We've had discussions before about a growing trend away from -er forms for normal comparatives, and I've observed it too (all the more since someone here pointed it out), but I really don't understand it. What's wrong with the normal word?

With this word at least, I too would vote for 'emptier' in almost any context. I wouldn't disagree that there could be some particular context where 'more empty' might sound better, but so far, I can't actually think of one.

And on the shopping cart issue, I don't think the minimal degree of slope in modern carts is enough to make anything slide anywhere, is it? If things slid off every time you put them down, bottles would bang into each other, eggs would break, tomatoes would get squshed ...

Also, carts used to be bigger, and therefore look emptier, but then they made them shallower so you didn't have to reach down so far to the bottom, right? Or so that the checkers didn't, in the good old days when checkers still took your things out of the cart for you. If encouraging shoppers to fill carts fuller had been the main priority, surely we would still have deeper carts.

No, it's a creative theory, but without more evidence, I'm afraid I'm skeptical. (-:

then they made them shallower so you didn't have to reach down so far to the bottom, right?

In the UK there are loads of different types of shopping trolleys - very shallow, high ones for the elderly, big deep family ones, ones with a seat for a baby and a child, ones with seats for two babies or two children, ones for wheelchair users.

Here in Dresden they just have the one single deep type in all the supermarkets I've been in. Haven't seen the other types anywhere else in Germany either, though I don't get out that much :-)

I, too, would write "trolleys", not "trollies". Here's a detailed LEO thread on that point: related discussion: trollies - die Wagen

OT(?):

#37: Here in Dresden they just have the one single deep type in all the supermarkets I've been in.

Really? Those are the ones I always try to avoid, as my arms just aren't long enough! Thankfully my local supermarket here in the UK has the "very shallow" ones too: I make a beeline for those :-)

Is there potential for "shopping trolley entrepreneurs" in Germany, then? ... ;-)

Maybe some BE speakers are led astray by 'brollies'?



OT

[zu mir] 'elderly' ... [/zu mir]

Motorized for those with difficulty walking, check, cute carts for kids, check, but all carts have a seat for one child, and I don't remember ever noticing one with two seats for two kids.

I used to like the deep ones because you could get more into them without having to organize it so much. But I think they've gone out of existence here.

Now if there's a second option, it's likely to be the mini double-decker -- only about a foot and a half square, but with an upper basket and a lower basket. First seen in Whole Foods, now spreading. They feel sort of chopped-off, but they hold more than a hand basket and maneuver more easily than a big cart. The Smart of carts?

One child, one baby: http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/...

Two babies: http://esay.runway.uk.net/files/0S1Z1M8A0U4L3...

wheelchair type: http://www.filplastic.co.uk/displayimage.php?...

shallow: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/04/01/art...

deep: http://m.gmgrd.co.uk/sbres/983.$plit/C_67_art...

German one without seat: http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_349/1...

Eine Ergänzung zu #31: Als Standard-Steigerung habe ich gelernt:
- einsilbige Adjektive auf -er, -est (smaller, higher)
- drei- und mehrsilbige auf more, most (more beautiful, the most considerate)
- zweisilbige auf more, most - Ausnahme: die Endungen -er, -le, -ow, -y (cleverer, subtler, shallower, emptier)

- We have the issue of whether a superlative may be qualified (this is not that important here because readers know what you mean)

- Only #27 has begun to address the unwelcome effect that the word 'much' has on the feel of the sentence. #31 avoids this issue and gives an example of a complex adjective ('empty of meaning'), thus making the discussion more muddier. 'Emptier of meaning' and 'More empty of meaning' would both, alone, be fine, but 'much emptier' is where we begin to question the feel.
The reason is probably that in cases where 'much' qualifies the word 'more' or the word 'less' (followed by adjective), it sounds simple and comprehensible and safe, but where the comparative structure is built into the adjective itself ('emptier') the qualifier 'much' begins to unsettle us because we have a positive concept ('much') apparently clashing with a negative concept ('empty'). I think this is the only reason it feels "funny" (#15).
In this light and in the light of #26, I'd say both options are fine.

Alternative solutions:
- As in #27, You could leave out the 'much' because it adds nothing of value to the idea you are trying to convey.
- You could say: '...appears to have many fewer items in it than is actually the case'.

@41: There are many exceptions: e.g. 'stupid'.

There are many exceptions: e.g. 'stupid'.
What is the comparative of stupid, if not "more stupid"?

stupider :-)

I don't think 'much emptier' sounds strange at all syntactically, it's only dubious factually, because 'much' is an exaggeration.

A shopping cart doesn't really look much emptier if everything is at one end, only a little emptier. (-:

ghostwriter still hasn't told us why he can't say "less full".

Incidentally, and only slightly OT, I suggest a visit to:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stray-Shopping-Carts-...

and recommend the book.

This is kind of like the discussion on whether one can use "whiter" and "deader" or "more pregnant". I've no problem with "emptier" logically, it just sounds slightly odd as a word. But more empty sound worse.

I also think though that trollys (thank you CM2DD) are slanted because they nest in one another outside in the parking lot. I've never noticed my food moving about either.

Moving food? Only after is has sat in the fridge for weeks ;-)

In German it's possible (I think) to say "ein Glass ist leerer als das andere". You can't say that in English

One glass is emptier than the other.

There, I just did.

'More empty' sounds dreadful, google-shmoogle hin oder her.

The bottom of the trolley is horizontal, not angled. There is no sliding about of anything.

thus making the discussion more muddier

Care to rephrase that? :)

I refuse to pepper my quips with smilies. A little work on the part of the reader gives gentle humour the desired glow.