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  • Subject

    Haushalts-Natron

    [chem.][noun]
    Sources

    Was muss ich in den USA kaufen um Haushalts-Natron zu bekommen? Ich nutze es in Deutschland viel zum Reinigen, um Wasser weicher zu machen, um Obst und Gemüse zu waschen. Finde das Equivalent dazu in den USA nicht.

    Schon jetzt vielen Dank für Hinweise

    Author Ejay444 (1139309) 05 Aug 18, 17:13
    Comment

    Sodium bicarbonate, baking soda

    don’t go for baking powder, because that’s got added corn starch and cream of tartar

    #1Authorlaalaa (238508) 05 Aug 18, 17:21
    Sources
    Comment


    Sodium carbonate, Na2CO3, (also known as washing soda, soda ash and soda crystals, and in the monohydrate form as crystal carbonate)

    #2Author Miss Take (399408) 05 Aug 18, 17:24
    Comment

    sodium carbonate - Waschsoda

    sodium bicarbonate - (Haushalts)natron



    For baking soda in the US, the brand of choice is Arm & Hammer

    https://www.walmart.com/ip/Arm-Hammer-Pure-Ba...


    #3Authorlaalaa (238508) 05 Aug 18, 17:34
    Comment

    AFAIK, Haushalts-Natron is Natriumhydrogencarbonat

    = sodium bicarbonate (sodium hydrogen carbonate, NaHCO3) = bicarbonate of soda (UK), baking soda (US).

    #4Author Marianne (BE) (237471) 05 Aug 18, 18:02
    Comment

    I don't know anyone here in the US who uses Arm & Hammer (or anything else, for that matter) to wash their fruits and vegetables with - or to soften their water. Most people just use tap water, without anything, and most tap water is pretty darn soft if you ask me.

    #5Author dude (253248) 05 Aug 18, 18:10
    Comment

    Hi dude

    Sodium carbonate (Na2CO3) is indeed used as a water softener - possibly hence the confusion here - but washing soda is not edible, should not be inhaled, and can damage the eyes.

    https://hpd.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/bra...


    On the other hand, adding bicarbonate of soda/baking soda to the water is thought to be an effective way of removing pesticide residues from fruit and vegetables.

    It's also useful for treating aphthous ulcers and blocked drains! :-)

    #6Author Marianne (BE) (237471) 05 Aug 18, 18:27
    Comment

    I'm not arguing that it's used, Marianne, I'm saying I don't know anyone who uses it. Maybe it's more of a European thing? Most people I know get a small box of Arm & Hammer, open it slightly, and place it in their refrigerators to fight the odors of whatever might stay long enough in there to turn into a science project. :-)

    #7Author dude (253248) 05 Aug 18, 18:44
    Comment

    Another excellent use :-)

    #8Author Marianne (BE) (237471) 05 Aug 18, 18:46
    Comment

    Even back when I was in the US, I used baking soda to soften my water for special purposes. (By no means is it a replacement for an ion-exchange water softener if your water is hard (which, contrary to dude's #5, happens quite often in the US when water comes out of an underground aquifer) -- and using baking soda to "soften" water isn't the same as actually removing the compounds that make it "hard"). Specifically, if I managed to severely burn something in a pot, I would liberally sprinkle baking soda into it, add a drop of two of dishwashing liquid, and enough water to more than slightly cover the bottom, then put it on the burner until the was hot. Then let it sit for a while. Much easier than trying to scour it out. (In fact, I just did it yesterday.)


    What's funny here is that there are multiple threads in LEO where English speakers in a German-speaking area have asked about the availability of baking soda here or where NGSs have asked about what to use for baking soda in a recipe written in English. Typically, after a few incorrect answers stating that it is "Backpulver," someone will correctly say that it is "Natron."

    #9Author hbberlin (420040) 06 Aug 18, 09:52
    Comment

    We've had this discussion before, but there are two important things to say (both said already, but they're important enough to repeat)


    'Soda' by itself usually means 'washing soda' or sodium carbonate, and this is quite definitely NOT Natron. It is a bleach, and it would be a very bad idea to ingest it.


    Natron (Natriumhydrogencarbonat) is sodium bicarbonate: this has numerous uses, one of which is as one component of baking powder. However it is only one component: baking powder also needs an acid to react with it. (Other uses: as a freely available antacid, and as a fridge deodorant.) I am never quite sure, when people say 'baking soda', whether they mean baking powder or sodium bicarbonate. Sometimes I think they aren't sure either.


    In BE, Natron is usually referred to colloquially as 'bicarb', or sometimes as 'sodium bic'.

    #10Author escoville (237761) 06 Aug 18, 10:14
    Comment

    @escoville: I suggested "baking soda" in my #1 since that is the AE term for bicarb and the OP wanted AE, see also link in my #3

    #11Authorlaalaa (238508) 06 Aug 18, 10:24
    Comment

    I am never quite sure, when people say 'baking soda', whether they mean baking powder or sodium bicarbonate. Sometimes I think they aren't sure either.

    If they are AE speakers, they are very much aware of the difference and would only say "baking soda" to mean "sodium bicarbonate" or "bicarbonate of soda"! (Unless, of course, they have absolutely no idea about baking and have never bothered to look at the Arm & Hammer (or any other) box of baking soda, which very clearly states the chemical name as well.) As for BE speakers who may use the term "baking soda" (if there are any who do so), I, of course, won't try guess what they mean. Perhaps they've read an AE recipe and are befuddled...?

    #12Author hbberlin (420040) 06 Aug 18, 11:17
    Sources

    1: NaHCO3

    DE: Natron (alias Haushaltsnatron, Backnatron, Speisenatron, doppeltkohlensaures Natron) ist chemisch die Substanz

    Natriumhydrogencarbonat (NaHCO3)

    und wird auch bezeichnet als Backsoda, Speisesoda, altmodisch auch Natriumbicarbonat. 


    EN: Die chem. Substanz sodium hydrogen carbonate (NaHCO3) wird bezeichnet als sodium bicarbonate, bicarbonate of soda (v.a. BE), baking soda (v.a AE), daneben auch als bread soda, cooking soda, verkürzt auch sodium bicarb, bicarb soda, bicarbonate, bicarb.


    Wirkung: Abspaltung von Kohlendioxid (CO2), für menschl. Genuss geeignet

    Anwendung (u.a)

    • Bestandteil von Backpulver, Brausepulver, z.T. Zahnpasta, z.T. Mittel gegen Sodbrennen
    • Wasserenthärtung
    • (Küchen-)Reinigungsmittel
    • Antigeruchsmittel im Kühlschrank
    • Waschen von Obst/Gemüse


    2: Na2CO3

    Im Unterschied dazu:

    DE: Natriumcarbonat/Natriumkarbonat (Na2CO3) wird als (reines) Soda, Waschsoda, calciniertes/kalziniertes Soda bezeichnet, in kristallisierter Form (+H20) Kristallsoda.


    EN: Sodium carbonate (Na2CO3) wird meist als washing soda, daneben auch als soda ash bezeichnet, in kristallisierter Form soda crystals, crystal carbonate.


    Na2CO3 ist in reiner Form für menschl. Genuss nicht geeignet, wirkt basisch, reizt Haut, Augen und Atemwege und gilt daher als Gefahrstoff!

    Anwendung (u.a)

    • Industrielle Verwendung bei Herstellung von Glas, Bleich- u. Reinigungsmitteln, Waschmittel- u. Seifen, Klebstoffen, div. anderen Chemikalien, in diversen Industrien: Verhüttung, Lederindustrie, Papier- u. Zellstoffherstellung u.a.
    • Lebensmittelherstellung
    • zum Einsatz in häuslichen Reinigungs-, Spül- und Waschmitteln, Abflussreinigern.


    3: NaOH

    Noch mehr Vorsicht ist geboten bei dem dritten Verwandten im Bunde:

    DE: Natriumhydroxid (NaOH) wird als Ätznatron bzw. caustisches/kaustisches Soda

    bezeichnet, altmodisch auch Natriumoxydhydrat, Natronhydrat. In wässriger Lösung wird daraus Natronlauge


    EN: Sodium hydroxide (NaOH) wird auch als caustic soda, soda lye, lye of soda bezeichnet


    NaOH ist ein hautätzender und schwere Augenschäden verursachender Gefahrstoff!

    Anwendungen:

    • Natronlauge ist einer der wichtigsten Grundstoffe der chem. u. Industrie und wird in vielen industriellen Produktionsprozessen eingesetzt.
    • Wesentlicher Bestandteil von Abfluss- und Backofenreinigern
    • Effektive Entfernung von Brandkrusten und Verkohlungen von (nichtaluminischen!) Küchengeräten
    • Bei Laugengebäck beschleunigt 4%ige Natronlauge die Maillard-Reaktion (aromat. Röstkruste) des Backguts.

    Lagert man NaOH unverschlossen an der Luft, reagiert es mit dem Kohlendioxid (CO2) der Luft zu Natron oder Soda...


    NB:

    Ach ja, das noch: "Backpulver"/"Baking Powder" mag Natron enthalten, ist aber etwas anderes:

    Backpulver ist eine Mischung aus einer CO2-Quelle, meist Natriumhydrogencarbonat (Natron) oder Kaliumhydrogencarbonat, und einem Säuerungsmittel, oft Weinsäure, Dinatriumdihydrogendiphosphat (E 450a) oder Monocalciumorthophosphat (E 341a) als Säureträger. Zudem wird ein Trennmittel (bis 30 %) aus Mais-, Reis-, Weizen- oder Tapiokastärke bzw. Weizenmehl zugegeben, um Feuchtigkeit zu binden und so eine vorzeitige CO2-Entwicklung zu verhindern. (...) Bei flachen Dauergebäcken wird eher Ammoniumhydrogencarbonat verwendet, für Leb- und Honigkuchen in Verbindung mit Kaliumcarbonat (Pottasche). Manchmal wird für Lebkuchen auch Hirschhornsalz oder eine Mischung von Ammoniumhydrogencarbonat und Ammoniumcarbamat im Verhältnis 1:1 eingesetzt.

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backpulver


    Baking powder is a dry chemical leavening agent, a mixture of a carbonate or bicarbonate and a weak acid and is used for increasing the volume and lightening the texture of baked goods. Baking powder works by releasing carbon dioxide gas into a batter or dough through an acid-base reaction, causing bubbles in the wet mixture to expand and thus leavening the mixture. (...) Most commercially available baking powders are made up of sodium bicarbonate (also known as baking soda or bicarbonate of soda) and one or more acid salts. Typical formulations (by weight) call for 30% sodium bicarbonate, 5-12% monocalcium phosphate, and 21-26% sodium aluminum sulfate. The last two ingredients are acidic: they combine with the sodium bicarbonate and water to produce the gaseous carbon dioxide. The use of two acidic components is the basis of the term "double acting." Another typical acid in such formulations is cream of tartar, a derivative of tartaric acid. Baking powders also include components to help with the consistency and stability of the mixture. Commercial baking powder formulations are different from domestic ones, although the principles remain the same. Instead of sodium aluminum sulfate, commercial baking powders use sodium acid pyrophosphate as one of the two acidic components.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baking_powder

    Comment


    Die diversen Natrons und Sodas sind aber auch eine Dose wuselnder Würmer. Ich habe oben mal die drei wichtigsten Substanzen mit ihren vielen Aliasen zusammengestellt. Vielleicht kann das künftig der einen oder anderen Anfrage/Fehlantwort abhelfen.

    #13Author lingua franca (48253) 06 Aug 18, 13:08
    Comment
    To add to the confusion, there's also single- and double-acting baking powders on the supermarket shelves.

    Their baking properties are different and have read that they are therefore not interchangeable.

    Same article indicated German brand baking powders are the single-acting type.

    Also buy Dr Oetker Natron in specialty stores and use it when baking Lebkuchen.
    #14Author Mein Fritz (862420) 07 Aug 18, 06:03
    Comment

    Also buy Dr Oetker Natron in specialty stores and use it when baking Lebkuchen.


    While baking powders may differ, sodium bicarbonate (=baking soda=Natron) is the same regardless of which company it comes from. Did you mean Dr. O. Backpulver?


    I don't know about all German baking powders, but Dr. O. is indeed single-acting (meaning that it has only one source of acid (Dinatriumdiphosphat,)...double-acting BPs have two sources of acid).


    #15Author hbberlin (420040) 07 Aug 18, 09:56
    Sources

    Dr Oetker Natron Produktbeschreibung


    https://www.oetker.de/unsere-produkte/backzut...

    Comment

    @ hbberlin,


    the Dr O product I purchase is 5 sachets à 5g and is labeled Natron, with the ingredient(s) Natriumhydrogencarbonat (E500) / Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate (E500)

    #16Author Mein Fritz (862420) 07 Aug 18, 19:01
    Comment

    That, indeed, is simply standard baking soda—just another way of stating sodium bicarbonate.

    #17Author hbberlin (420040) 07 Aug 18, 22:22
    Comment

    just for those interested, here is a link identifying some uses and differences between sodium carbonate (Natron) and sodium bicarbonate (baking soda).....


    Sodium Carbonate vs. Sodium Bicarbonate

    #18Author Mein Fritz (862420) 10 Aug 18, 01:15
     
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